| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Heffenfeffer
Trick Member
Joined: 22 Apr 2002
Location: Las Cruces, NM |
0.  Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 9:54 pm Post subject: In the Grievances - Fundamental Problems for RoXoR to fix |
 |
|
Hey folks - I just managed to get In the Groove today, and it's a pretty nice game. I consider it a worthy successor to DDR, and the gameplay and songs are pretty fun. However, it has quite a few interface grievances and technical rough edges that rub me the wrong way. I'm posting these in the hope that RoXoR and Red Octane take a look and hopefully fix them for the PS2 release of ITG 2. (It's never too early to get started and all that.)
I'd like to keep the discussion focused on technical problems, however. For instance, please don't complain that certain songs suck - but if the steps are out of sync, fire away.
1 - First off, and most obvious - the load times are pretty darn long. I did a little emperical testing and discovered the following:
| Code: |
1p/2p Select Song Select Song End
-> Song Select -> Song Start -> Results
ITG 9.5 sec. 8.0 sec. 10.5 sec.
DDR 2.0 sec. 4.5 sec. 4.0 sec.
(USMax1)
|
Furthermore, the load times in DDR seemed even shorter than when I timed them - I timed from the point when one screen ends to the time when useful information appears on the next. DDR has dynamic screens that count numbers up or rush components of menus onscreen in a delay fashion - which seems to help the whole "I'm going as fast as I can!" thing. ITG, on the other hand, has static "Loading..." or static black screens - which persist for so long, with no sound effects or music, that one constantly thinks the PS2 has locked up or gotten a DRE error.
So, suggestion number one to RoXoR is to find a way to reduce load times, or at the very least, put some moving elements on the loading screens so it appears that they game hasn't stalled out.
2 - Controller weirdness. I have a homebuilt dancepad with pushbuttons. However, due to some mishap, the top of the X button is currently broken off. It still works, it's just a mite inconvienent. I've got an O button that works fine, though, except that it's completely useless here. Why can't O confirm or cancel like X? Better yet, why not have an option for configuring which buttons confirm or cancel?
3 - The half-hearted flying start. Why do left and right move one loading screen forward after the game starts? Why don't they enter the main menu, something much more useful? I can see a use for this paging to the high score list, but since it's no longer in attract mode, what's the point?
4 - Left goes up, right goes down...why is the song wheel like this? My wife was utterly bewildered on how to select a song when she gave the game a go. (Now admittedly, this is an interface flaw in DDR as well. I guess 4th Mix was the only game that got the whole "tap left to move the cursor left" thing down.)
5 - Why is it so hard to resort the songlist? Way number one is to press left-right-X simultaneously, which just can't be done on a dancepad (erm, well, unless you've been playing Charlene a lot. Still, unless you get it just right, you've selected a song left or right of the one you had selected...) Way number two is up-down-up-down, which is one misstep away from both go up and go down a difficulty level, twice in a row. Why not assign O, Start, or Select to do an instant resort?
6 - (Edit - Triangle does not perform an "instant quit" during gameplay, as I had previously claimed.)
--------
Now, that being said, by no means do I not like In the Groove. I think it's a great game, and I intend to have a lot of fun with it. It's just that the interface is driving me nuts, and hopefully posting the issues I have with it and why they're bad will help ITG 2 be that much better.
As well, they also do some good things with the interface:
1 - Accidental song-selection rescue. If you select a song by mistake, you can enter the settings menu. If you press Triangle or Select here, you'll quit out of the song and you'll be able to reselect a song without having to reset the game or fail.
2 - Confirm giving up. Holding down Start instead of Triangle gives visual feedback about "Giving up..." - thus if you accidently are on the button for some reason, you can get off, and if you want to give up, you know that ITG recieved your wish.
Well, that's all I've got offhand. Any thoughts?
_________________
"If something should happen to me, all the world's women will grieve!" - Edgar Rene Figaro
"Your charisma exceeds that of mortal men. Many would lay down their lives for you." - Fall-From-Grace
Last edited by Heffenfeffer on Wed Jun 15, 2005 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Reenee
Trick Member
Joined: 21 Nov 2003
|
| 1. Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 10:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| You should get the other bunch of bugs in here. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
.hack//*cough*
Trick Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Location: H-Town, TX, USA, Planet Earth, 3rd Rock from the Sun |
| 2. Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 10:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Just want to add a few things:
- The Easy/Medium stepcharts SUCK. Too repetitive (yes I have this same problem with the arcade) and boring. Put some turns/crossovers in there, guys! Novice is fine, though (not much to do with that).
- The TOPGRADE sort/game crashes bug (read thread). Bugs that actually corrupt save data are UNACCEPTABLE. Fix it for ITG2 CS.
- Oasis Medium (and only Medium) is offsync. The arrows are a whole beat behind the music.
- Put in an option to delete scores in game options, so stuff I do on a controller can be easily deleted without resorting to deleting the save file.
- While we're on the subject of options, why are there no sound options? Everyone has different sound setups at home.
- And yeah, change the sort method on the songwheel to a hot button or something. This is ITG, guys, not Pump It Up. I hate foot-codes.
_________________
"It's not God who created humans. It's humans who create God." - Cowboy Bebop Ep. 24 (Brain Scratch)
Atkins is dead. Long live exercise and dance games. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
XenomorphHunter
Basic Member
Joined: 09 May 2004
|
| 3. Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 1:52 am Post subject: Re: In the Grievances - Fundamental Problems for RoXoR to fi |
|
|
| Heffenfeffer wrote: | Hey folks - I just managed to get In the Groove today, and it's a pretty nice game. I consider it a worthy successor to DDR, and the gameplay and songs are pretty fun. However, it has quite a few interface grievances and technical rough edges that rub me the wrong way. I'm posting these in the hope that RoXoR and Red Octane take a look and hopefully fix them for the PS2 release of ITG 2. (It's never too early to get started and all that.)
I'd like to keep the discussion focused on technical problems, however. For instance, please don't complain that certain songs suck - but if the steps are out of sync, fire away.
1 - First off, and most obvious - the load times are pretty darn long. I did a little emperical testing and discovered the following:
| Code: |
1p/2p Select Song Select Song End
-> Song Select -> Song Start -> Results
ITG 9.5 sec. 8.0 sec. 10.5 sec.
DDR 2.0 sec. 4.5 sec. 4.0 sec.
(USMax1)
|
Furthermore, the load times in DDR seemed even shorter than when I timed them - I timed from the point when one screen ends to the time when useful information appears on the next. DDR has dynamic screens that count numbers up or rush components of menus onscreen in a delay fashion - which seems to help the whole "I'm going as fast as I can!" thing. ITG, on the other hand, has static "Loading..." or static black screens - which persist for so long, with no sound effects or music, that one constantly thinks the PS2 has locked up or gotten a DRE error.
So, suggestion number one to RoXoR is to find a way to reduce load times, or at the very least, put some moving elements on the loading screens so it appears that they game hasn't stalled out.
2 - Controller weirdness. I have a homebuilt dancepad with pushbuttons. However, due to some mishap, the top of the X button is currently broken off. It still works, it's just a mite inconvienent. I've got an O button that works fine, though, except that it's completely useless here. Why can't O confirm or cancel like X? Better yet, why not have an option for configuring which buttons confirm or cancel?
3 - The half-hearted flying start. Why do left and right move one loading screen forward after the game starts? Why don't they enter the main menu, something much more useful? I can see a use for this paging to the high score list, but since it's no longer in attract mode, what's the point?
4 - Left goes up, right goes down...why is the song wheel like this? My wife was utterly bewildered on how to select a song when she gave the game a go. (Now admittedly, this is an interface flaw in DDR as well. I guess 4th Mix was the only game that got the whole "tap left to move the cursor left" thing down.)
5 - Why is it so hard to resort the songlist? Way number one is to press left-right-X simultaneously, which just can't be done on a dancepad (erm, well, unless you've been playing Charlene a lot. Still, unless you get it just right, you've selected a song left or right of the one you had selected...) Way number two is up-down-up-down, which is one misstep away from both go up and go down a difficulty level, twice in a row. Why not assign O, Start, or Select to do an instant resort?
6 - Triangle as "instant quit" during gameplay. I've accidently quit out of many a DDR game by holding down triangle on many a homepad - and that was with Triangle being a delayed quit. How many softpad users are going to end their game halfway through with one misstep? The easiest solution here is to swap Start and Triangle's functions during gameplay, but a better solution would be to have an option between instant quit and delayed quit. Perhaps have a two-button instant quit like DDR to minimize accidental instant quits.
|
You made some interesting and agreeable points, but I have some grievances.
Point 1. I think everyone agrees there, the load times SUCK.
Point 2. I suppose they didn't want to exactly map their game to the same layout as DDR because... well that'd just make the game look more like a blatant DDR rip off. I know it is, but don't you think copying the button scheme would be going too far?
Point 3. Um... I don't understand what you're speaking of. Could you elaborate?
Point 4. Eh, just get used to it. I barely think about it now, though I find DDR extreme US Songlist unplayable just because it's so damn confusing.
Point 5. Yeah, it is sort of a small hassle, but personally, I like the foot code. That and I never really find a reason to resort the list anyway. Whenever I did in DDR, it was just to get it to the alphabetical list, ITG saves that setting for me so I'm happy.
Point 6. Again, I don't quite fully understand what you're talking about. With dancepad settings on, all the corners should be disabled. I assumed they were, but maybe I've just never triggered the triangle, I don't know. That and the start/select (I don't know which one it is, it isn't labeled on my control box) functions as a delayed quit during gameplay, so yeah, I'm kinda confused over your complaint. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Char
Trick Member
Joined: 30 Apr 2004
|
| 4. Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 4:15 am Post subject: Re: In the Grievances |
|
|
| Heffenfeffer wrote: |
2 - Controller weirdness. I have a homebuilt dancepad with pushbuttons. However, due to some mishap, the top of the X button is currently broken off. |
How is this an ITG problem? I don't think it's unreasonable for a company to expect that people playing its game don't have broken buttons on their controller. I agree it's a problem, I just don't see how it'a RoXoR's, considering if your circle button was broken DDR would be just as useless.
| Heffenfeffer wrote: | | 4 - Left goes up, right goes down...why is the song wheel like this? |
This is how DDR does it, and always has done it, and also how the ITG arcade version does it. Your concern is not invalid, but I've never seen a single person note this before, and I think I personally would be more confused with an up/down song select wheel. It's easier to lean left/right than it is up/down for a start.
| Heffenfeffer wrote: | | Way number two is up-down-up-down, which is one misstep away from both go up and go down a difficulty level, twice in a row. |
By the numbers it's one misstep off, but I think pressing up up instead of up down would require a nice bit of tripping or something along those lines. Even if it happens, a double tap sorts the problem again. I'd find it more inconvenient to be reaching down to press my start button, or hit my current mat's tiny start button with my foot, than I would to do a little jig and have it done.
| Heffenfeffer wrote: | | 6 - Triangle as "instant quit" during gameplay. |
If this is how it does it, then I'm surprised, That's really not good at all, and I'm surprised more people haven't moaned about it. I'd do it all the time. I do like your 'song rescue' idea, though. That would be really nice. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mr. A
Trick Member
Joined: 20 Oct 2003
Location: INTERNET |
| 5. Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 4:32 am Post subject: Re: In the Grievances |
|
|
| Char wrote: |
| Heffenfeffer wrote: | | 6 - Triangle as "instant quit" during gameplay. |
If this is how it does it, then I'm surprised, That's really not good at all, and I'm surprised more people haven't moaned about it. I'd do it all the time. I do like your 'song rescue' idea, though. That would be really nice. |
Holy cow, I hope that when dancepad mode is on that you can't hit the triangle. 
Someone PLEASE check this.
Last edited by Mr. A on Tue Jun 14, 2005 4:41 am, edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Cutriss
Staff Member
Joined: 24 Jan 2002
|
| 6. Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 4:33 am Post subject: Re: In the Grievances |
|
|
| Heffenfeffer wrote: | | 4 - Left goes up, right goes down...why is the song wheel like this? |
| Heffenfeffer wrote: | | Way number two is up-down-up-down, which is one misstep away from both go up and go down a difficulty level, twice in a row. |
So, which way do you want it? If L/R doesn't spin the songwheel, and U/D change difficulty, how do you do it? Again, considering that some people only have eight buttons on their dancepads (Konami softpads and Afterburners).
_________________
Sentient Mode is capable... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Synaesthesia
Trick Member
Joined: 03 Apr 2005
Location: Crushing all deceivers, smashing non-believers |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Cutriss
Staff Member
Joined: 24 Jan 2002
|
| 8. Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 4:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
I imagine there is, or you'd be hearing a lot more complaining than you are already, so take it easy.
_________________
Sentient Mode is capable... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kyrandian
Trick Member
Joined: 24 Mar 2002
Location: Portland, OR |
| 9. Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 5:01 am Post subject: Re: In the Grievances |
|
|
| Synaesthesia wrote: | | Alpha (IIDX Style) wrote: |
Holy cow, I hope that when dancepad mode is on that you can't hit the triangle.
Someone PLEASE check this.
|
Yeah, there had better be a separate setting for controllers and dancepads, becuase if there isn't, this game will be almost unplayable on the controller, and not too much fun (especially in terms of unlocks, not to mention difficulties) on the dancepad. |
There is, and I had no trouble turning the corner buttons off in the options menu.
The load times don't bother me a bit. They seemed a little annoying at first, but now I don't even notice them. The only one that still feels kinda weird is the one for the results screen. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mr. A
Trick Member
Joined: 20 Oct 2003
Location: INTERNET |
| 10. Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 5:05 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Well, that is some relief. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Heffenfeffer
Trick Member
Joined: 22 Apr 2002
Location: Las Cruces, NM |
| 11. Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 7:00 am Post subject: You Rock! (funky backbeat) |
|
|
| Char wrote: | | Heffenfeffer wrote: |
2 - Controller weirdness. I have a homebuilt dancepad with pushbuttons. However, due to some mishap, the top of the X button is currently broken off. |
How is this an ITG problem? I don't think it's unreasonable for a company to expect that people playing its game don't have broken buttons on their controller. I agree it's a problem, I just don't see how it'a RoXoR's, considering if your circle button was broken DDR would be just as useless.
|
It's not so much that I've got a broken button (though, yeah, I should probably fix it) but it's that a perfectly good button goes unused. Really, it ties in more with song select...
| Char wrote: | | Heffenfeffer wrote: | | Way number two is up-down-up-down, which is one misstep away from both go up and go down a difficulty level, twice in a row. |
By the numbers it's one misstep off, but I think pressing up up instead of up down would require a nice bit of tripping or something along those lines. Even if it happens, a double tap sorts the problem again. I'd find it more inconvenient to be reaching down to press my start button, or hit my current mat's tiny start button with my foot, than I would to do a little jig and have it done. |
True, this is the first dance game home version I've seen with working stepcodes (beyond double-tap for difficulty - a convention that I really don't find intuitive but go with because it's the DDR way) which are indeed helpful without hitting buttons. However, it would be a lot simpler to have pressing one button bring up a resort list as well. While stepcodes are faster, button-driven menus are a lot more accessible to new players - so having both is a huge plus. While ITG does technically have both, I would've liked O to replace left-right-X to enter the option menu here (since on most dancepads, X and O are the same large size, and it's a lot easier to step on one panel than three simultaneously.)
As it is, left-right-X is just not the viable button alternative to the jig that it claims to be.
(Incedentally, Start doesn't re-sort the song list - it's a confirm button like X is.)
| Cutriss wrote: | Heffenfeffer wrote:
4 - Left goes up, right goes down...why is the song wheel like this?
Heffenfeffer wrote:
Way number two is up-down-up-down, which is one misstep away from both go up and go down a difficulty level, twice in a row.
So, which way do you want it? If L/R doesn't spin the songwheel, and U/D change difficulty, how do you do it? Again, considering that some people only have eight buttons on their dancepads (Konami softpads and Afterburners). |
Sadly, the lack of buttons isn't even the problem, since only six different button functions are used overall (directions, X/Start confirm, Triangle/Select cancel.) O in this case is completely unused, despite being one of the two prominent buttons on the most common dancepad designs.
The wheel thing is an interface no-no that's just been eating at the back of my head for a while. In JP Extreme and ITG, pressing right selects the next song below. In US Extreme and pre-4th Mix, pressing right selects the song on the left. Why can't you select the next song below with down with a vertical wheel, and select the song on the right with right on a horizontal wheel? Whichever wheel design you select, you can use LR or UD to turn the wheel (the proper direction) and use the other pair to control difficulty.
| Kyrandian wrote: | Synaesthesia wrote:
Alpha (IIDX Style) wrote:
Holy cow, I hope that when dancepad mode is on that you can't hit the triangle. E11.gif
Someone PLEASE check this.
Yeah, there had better be a separate setting for controllers and dancepads, becuase if there isn't, this game will be almost unplayable on the controller, and not too much fun (especially in terms of unlocks, not to mention difficulties) on the dancepad.
There is, and I had no trouble turning the corner buttons off in the options menu. |
Ah, OK. I'll have to check when I get home. (I'm at work, shhhh!  ) I'm still having trouble with controller play, though - the four face buttons don't double as LUDR for two-thumb playing, it seems. If this feature isn't there, then jumps become nearly impossible. (Yikes, I don't want to think about hands...)
_________________
"If something should happen to me, all the world's women will grieve!" - Edgar Rene Figaro
"Your charisma exceeds that of mortal men. Many would lay down their lives for you." - Fall-From-Grace |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Reenee
Trick Member
Joined: 21 Nov 2003
|
| 12. Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 7:29 am Post subject: |
|
|
I think people should just shut up about the loading times already. I doubt a person is going to go "HURRY UP, DAMN YOU. I WANT TO DO CHARLENE NOW," after doing Delirium...
Loading times are nothing more than extended breathers. Stop griping. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cfusionpm
Trick Member
Joined: 24 Jan 2002
Location: San Diego, CA |
| 13. Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 10:16 am Post subject: |
|
|
| [HENTAI] Reenee wrote: | I think people should just shut up about the loading times already. I doubt a person is going to go "HURRY UP, DAMN YOU. I WANT TO DO CHARLENE NOW," after doing Delirium...
Loading times are nothing more than extended breathers. Stop griping. |
i do that. im sick of waiting. i play this game on controller cuz i have 2 arcades within 10 minutes of me with itg. i want to play a song, then i want to play another song. i dont want to sit and wait for their improper/inferior programming to think about it for 10 seconds when it doesnt have to.
also, a point i brought up briefly that no one else seemed to say anything about was the complete lack of edit mode (which takes away pretty much ALL replay value for me).
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wintermute
Trick Member
Joined: 30 Jul 2003
Location: Maryland |
| 14. Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 10:26 am Post subject: |
|
|
| But you have no problems with the controller play? You can easily hit however you need to? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
.hack//*cough*
Trick Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Location: H-Town, TX, USA, Planet Earth, 3rd Rock from the Sun |
| 15. Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 10:32 am Post subject: |
|
|
| cfusionpm wrote: | | also, a point i brought up briefly that no one else seemed to say anything about was the complete lack of edit mode (which takes away pretty much ALL replay value for me). |
You can thank Konami for that.
Supposedly they have a patent on Edit Mode for home consoles.
_________________
"It's not God who created humans. It's humans who create God." - Cowboy Bebop Ep. 24 (Brain Scratch)
Atkins is dead. Long live exercise and dance games. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
wrath04
Trick Member
![]()
Joined: 23 Jul 2004
Location: Illinois |
| 16. Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 10:36 am Post subject: |
|
|
| All of this has been taken care of for the release of ITG2, and this stuff has been talked about a long time ago on RoXor's forum. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cfusionpm
Trick Member
Joined: 24 Jan 2002
Location: San Diego, CA |
| 17. Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 10:44 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Wintermute wrote: | | But you have no problems with the controller play? You can easily hit however you need to? |
no problems whatsoever. left thumb on D pad, right thumb on X/O/[ ]/Î and play as if they are my left and right legs on a single pad. thats how i've always played at home since the beginning of ddr. actually, the only slight problem is my UP button's sensor isnt exactly brand new, and i some times get misses if i dont hit it hard enough.
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tortoise
Trick Member
Joined: 24 Jan 2002
Location: ex Iowan now in WV |
| 18. Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 10:49 am Post subject: |
|
|
| [HENTAI] Reenee wrote: | I think people should just shut up about the loading times already. I doubt a person is going to go "HURRY UP, DAMN YOU. I WANT TO DO CHARLENE NOW," after doing Delirium...
Loading times are nothing more than extended breathers. Stop griping. |
The loading times are bad enough to cause heart rate to drop too much between songs. So in that regard, ITG is not nearly as effective for fitness as DDR is.
My main gripe is the music is generally raw and unprofessional. It may just take some time to warm up to it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Char
Trick Member
Joined: 30 Apr 2004
|
| 19. Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 11:01 am Post subject: |
|
|
| .hack//*cough* wrote: |
You can thank Konami for that.
Supposedly they have a patent on Edit Mode for home consoles. |
That sounds like a load of rubbish. As I heard it, bugs with the USB driver couldn't be resolved in time to meet the deadline, so it got yanked. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB 2 © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
|
Forums FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Login to check your private messages
Login
