My home built metal DDR pad (Part IV)

[Crimson7]

Thanks a lot! I'll try to find a metal shop near by. In case I don't find one, and this is likely what would happen, what else can I use for the corners?

[ChilliumBromide]

Well, if you own a jigsaw, I'd say just get a sheet of 30ga. sheet steel, a steel-cutting jigsaw blade, and find a good, solid corner surface. Then, cut the steel into 16 triangles with little tabs sticking out of the legs, put the triangle on the corner surface, hammer the tabs down*, and you have corner brackets.

* = you don't have to hammer the tabs down, if you just tweak the design a little. If you want to go without that step, just ask and I'll be happy to elaborate.
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[Crimson7]

Unfortunately (again), I do not own a jigsaw. I'm new to the do-it-yourself thing, so I don't own a lot of the tools needed. I was trying to find out if anyone has a corner design using something other than the corner brackets that are used on the arcade dance pad. If I can't figure something out, guess I'll have to stick to the way stoli did his corners.

It sucks living in a place with limited resources...

[devout]

Hey all, could someone elaborate on what exactly people mean by "arcade feel" or what is otherwise desirable in how the arrows should feel when you step on them?

I'm just getting to the part of my pad construction where i can assemble it enough to step on the arrows, and with my current design they push down about 1/8" without bending. When you hit it, you dont really feel any resistance until it bottoms out after 1/8". (It only takes a light tap to register a hit...it feels a lot like pushing a giant playstation control button with your foot.)

It's been about 5 years since i played in an arcade, but i seem to recall that you couldnt really feel the button going down... it was just like stepping on a big solid surface.

The arrow support/sensor design is new as far as I know, and i'm preparing a tutorial. As such I'd like it to be something that most people will like the feel of. If necessary I'll mod it further to make it more arcade-ish. Any thoughts? Is this something people would really worry about in a home pad? Can anyone comment on how the other designs out there feel?

(ps, it's a lighted pad, so I guess there had to be some button travel as the sensors are all around the edge, so I cant just rely on the center flexing downward to hit something)

[MasterInuYasha]

so I've been really considering Using riptide's design, but instead of using to thin sheets of plastic, I will use 3/8'' thick lexan, Which as you know is the same as the arcade panels, and for each of the other panels, I am going to put a thin-ish layer of plastic under each of the panels, to give the foot panels a little reassessment. I am also going to polish the head of each screw till it's shinny, to improve over-all connectivity.


Also, for a bar, what do you recommend using, and how should I attach it to the pad, keeping as ferm as the arcade bar?

oh, The controller, Since I mainly play stepmania, Would it be best to buy an el-cheapo PC controller, or buy a GOOD xbox controller?

[ChilliumBromide]

Just use copper screws.
Gold > Copper > Steel > Aluminum
The only reason not to use gilded screws is that the gold would chip off.
Copper won't.

Devout: Yeah, the panels at the arcade are supposed to be solid (non-sinking), but panels that go down are fine too, if you can play that way without issues.
It's not to hard to make a panel design more solid; just make the sensors closer to each other.
The primary disadvantage I've noticed for sinking panels is that the panels tend to crack faster, but if you're using something like 1/4" or thicker Lexan, that shouldn't be a problem.

Crimson: Yeah, I didn't get into the whole do-it-yourself thing until I bought some tx1000's and realised that customer service would be nonexistant with them, so I'd have to do it myself if I wanted more than a couple weeks of DDR out of each pad.
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[Crimson7]

Does anyone have a pic of statikeffeck's dance pad? I'm really curious about what he used as a substitute for the corner brackets. The site from his post, way back when, does not exist anymore.

[riptide]

I just thought I would provide an update on the switch design I've been working on... it's a membrane switch basically... it uses the semi-rigid,semi-flexible properties of layers of plastic to create an on-off momentary switch. It's similar to a microwave touchpad.

THIS IS NOT A HOWTO -- THIS METHOD IS STILL EXPERIMENTAL, AND NOT WORKING. I also do not describe every step I took because it would take too much room (already a large post).

the membrane switch was created using stencil plastic (plastic sheets designed for creating stencils -- craft section of Walmart or any craft store), tin foil, and some spray adhesive

two strips of stencil plastic ... for each spray one side with glue, place that side on tin foil. make a couple more slices of stencil plastic cut the same length, but not as wide as the first two pieces and sandwich them between but on the outside edges of the tin foil pieces... so the smaller strips are preventing connection of the two in foil strips, but they don't cover the entire area between them. now you can press down anywhere along the center line of the entire thing to create a connection... it works very well

unfortunately, it works too well. It doesn't take much pressure at all to create a connection. Everything I've tried using to pad the width of the switch to take up the width of the space between the arrow well ledge and the acrylic panels has caused the switch to get pressed. Even just the lightest weather stripping I could find caused the switch to go off with very light pressure not even close to what the acrylic panels would cause without anything else pressing on it.

looking at the smaller length (down the longer length) of the switch:

[devout]

riptide - If i'm understanding your design correctly, it's pretty similar to one that i am using to build a pad now. It's not exactly what you're describing, but similar principles. Main difference is I cut out the middle man and instead of using plastic I'm using sheet metal to provide both the mechanical and electrical properties. I used the same design in my first pad 5 years ago, and it worked (though i didnt use the pad long enough to really comment on its durability or anything)

I'm writing a tutorial for it, which will probably not be done until around the end of february, but if you'd like some more details sooner I could email you a few photos.

[riptide]

That sounds like a good design. I would like to see pictures. I would only worry that the metal might loose its springy property for its malleability and form around whatever you are using to separate the two contacts. So you basically get an always on connection.

With plastic and tin foil, even if the foil tried to reform (which it probably does), the plastic's strength is going to override. A downside to tin foil is if you had a bunch of creases when it was glued, it can cause random connections within the switch, but stuffing something like a strip of card stock paper folded in half down the length of the switch can put enough pressure on the foil to flatten those creases out and make the sloppy construction work as reliably as a better constructed switch.
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- RipTide
riptide (at) digitaltorque (dot) com

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My pad design: http://www.wubros.com/ddrpad/

[ChilliumBromide]

Seems pretty basic to me; have you tried using foam between the plates instead? It seems a little too simple to be a real solution, but it sounds like they're just too close to each other. It sounds like they'd probably react just by putting the panels on the pad, which I don't think is quite what you're going for.
It might also work to put a layer of plastic wrap between the aluminun to weaken the signal a bit, but it might eliminate the signal altogether. I've never tried running a circuit through plastic wrap myself.
Good luck; sorry I can't offer more help.
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[riptide]

Hmm, actually that's a great idea. Something I didn't think of is to use the mounting tape between the layers. That would give a little extra room. I also don't want too much play in the actual switch because I want it to feel as close to the arcade pads as possible -- little to no movement of the panels on a step. I will try that.
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- RipTide
riptide (at) digitaltorque (dot) com

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My pad design: http://www.wubros.com/ddrpad/

[devout]

Leveraging off the pics I sent you: you could increase the amount of force you need to push it if the top layer of plastic was slightly convex, so that it kind of pops in instead of just squeezing together. (This is how the buttons on my microwave are btw) Of course you need to figure out where to find some curved plastic that will work right....

EDIT: In case you havent noticed, I think sensor design is an untapped area where we could collectively make a lot of progress. Seems weird that after all these years theres still only a few designs people use, and yet people also complain that their arrows stop working. Anyway... another thing this reminds me of: You ever take a snapple lid and you can pop the "safety button" up and down and it makes a really loud annoying noise? Picture a snapple lid in each corner wired to the ground, and the other half of your switch below it so when you step on it the safety button goes down and closes the switch. The acrylic sits directly on top of the lids.

I guess any glass jar lid would work, but snapples seem to be an appropriate size and springiness... they are however also the loudest

[circusfreak]

Hey guys. As far as sensor design goes, I think to get them to work without feeling any give in the step would be something more difficult like Marcan's pressure sensitive switches. Otherwise, it all comes back down to a simple mechanical contact switch which will always have some give or noise.

However, I think so far the Matrix design sensor is the closest to the arcade, the simplest to configure, and also very robust. I can not find anything else so far better than mousepad material for reliable rebound. I used these in 3 pads so far and as far as I can tell they never misfire. One thing I suggest is adding a 5th sensor to the middle of the step as well. This makes it so solid that it feels almost like the step is not moving, but is super sensitive due to the very small gap between the bracket and screw heads. Also nice that you don't have to connect anything to the underside of the step, which I think could be a failure point eventually due to step flex.

While on the topic of sensors, does anyone know what mechanism is inside the arcade sensors to trigger them? Would be nice to just use those for a home pad if they weren't $10 a piece.

[riptide]

I think that due to the number of people wanting to talk about switch design, we should move the discussion elsewhere so that people wanting to get help with pad building can have this space. I have created a mailing list -- [email protected] to discuss design aspects. In order to be a part of it you will need to visit http://www.digitaltorque.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ddrpad to join. I have it set so moderator(me) has to approve joins, but I will approve pretty much anyone... I just don't want some script kiddie joining the list a million times or submitting tons of emails to it -- my small server can only take so much

Circusfreak: there are two types of switches... the OEM ones that come in pads and then there are replacement ones that are slightly different. The OEM ones use a silicone rubber and are partially hollow inside. The top and bottom of the hollow spaces have a layer of silicone rubber that was mixed with metal flakes... when they meet with some pressure, a connection is made. (I read this from the patent)

The replacement switches made by another company (not sure why...) are supposed to (according to the marketing) last longer. They also have a silicone rubber casing, but inside they slide a membrane switch into it so that the rubber triggers the membrane switch when its compressed. This is what got me down the current switch design path.

Please feel free to join the mailing list for switch design discussion. I have made the membership require admin review, but I'll pretty much be allowing anyone/everyone to join... just did that to discourage spammers.
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- RipTide
riptide (at) digitaltorque (dot) com

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My pad design: http://www.wubros.com/ddrpad/

[ChilliumBromide]

While we're babbling about sensors. . .

NOT a complete guide to building it:

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I used to be active here lol

[Crimson7]

I think I found a solution to my corner bracket issue!
I think I'll be using this - http://webpages.charter.net/jamjohn/ddrpad.htm - type of dance pad construction. But I would like the gaps between squares to be smaller. Probably as small as the gaps on the cobalt flux pads.

BTW, what is the measurement of the gap between the non-metal parts of the squares on a Cobalt Flux pad?

[Travelsonic]

[riptide]

It's kind of one of the things I was thinking of... I just don't want too much flex to occur... because then it would feel less like the arcade pads
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- RipTide
riptide (at) digitaltorque (dot) com

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My pad design: http://www.wubros.com/ddrpad/

[pinkdeath]

I'm finished with my stoli's dance pad. But I used wooden borders and stained them... It really looks like something you'd find in a log cabin. I'll post pictures when I bring the pad back from my girlfriend's house. But I'm planning on making another one.

My plan is to make it so that when the panel pressed down, not only is the switch pressed, but also a light is activated. This pad will be ideal for playing in the dark. I got the concept from the show Metalocalypse. I want the pad to be completely black pretty much but with red arrows that light up red with lights underneath. And I'm trying to establish whether or not to use LEDs or if bulbs would be the good choice. Because bulbs have a lot shorter lifespan. But I'm not sure if LEDs will be able to light up the entire 11"x11" arrow. Because I don't want the LEDs to just show little red dots up through the arrow.

ALSO... to accomplish the red light through the arrow, I was wondering what to print on. My dad was suggesting printing on transparency.