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AA Bob
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Joined: 24 Aug 2005
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140.  Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 8:49 am Post subject: |
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| cfusionpm wrote: | | AA Bob wrote: | | However, ITG does have a tighter timing window than DDR. |
lol. no one plays courses. |
Lol, the Marvelous window is too small. From what I've heard, the hardware is not precise enough to guarantee than stepping in the center of the beat (even on a well-synced song) will get you a Marvelous. And even if they did use Marvs in normal play, DDR just isn't well-synced enough. Do you think that they went through and carefully fixed every song for the SN update patch? I sure don't, especially since I've heard several people say that while the drifting is gone, there are still plenty of offsync songs.
| A Beautiful Collision wrote: | | And complex rhythms? Where? |
The rhythms in Utopia are more complex than any rhythms in all of DDR, expect maybe for bag's pseudo-triplets. Bend Your Mind has a rhythmically complex middle section. Euphoria's 32nd drills are pretty hard to time. Several songs have repeated offbeat sixteenths. I'm not all that familiar with ITG2, but I'm sure it has plenty of songs like those. I seem to remember Sweet World and Go 60 Go being pretty crazy.
| A Beautiful Collision wrote: | | Everything goes to the song so perfectly you just have to hear the song once to be able to figure anything out. |
That's actually pretty funny, because one of the most frequent complaints I've heard about ITG is that it often follows parts of the music that aren't even audible in an arcade environment.
| A Beautiful Collision wrote: | | 2- Well designed charts is subjective; however most people can agree that a repetitive chart using the same patteerns over and over throughout is not well designed. |
I don't agree with that at all. If they're fun patterns, what's wrong with repeating them? So Deep is basically the same two rhythms over and over again, but it's certainly not a bad chart.
| A Beautiful Collision wrote: | | 4b- Mines make reading difficult? Maybe on 1x, but using 1x isn't encouraged. Bump it up to 2x speed and mines don't even make reading hard in minefields. |
Okay, I'll just bump Vertex up to x2. 
Even with speed mods, I still find that mines can make reading more difficult.
| A Beautiful Collision wrote: | 5- Um, yes, I've played the game. And most of the crossovers are    type of things. I've never had a problem reading a pattern on ITG with the exception of the slow down on Euphoria EXpert which took two tries to figure out. There are plenty of crossovers, even on 7s on Supernova, that still manage to confuse me today. |
This is why I was saying that it really looks like you haven't played much ITG. Find me a 7 footer with crossover complexity that compares to the end of Bend Your Mind Expert. Also, find me a 7 footer that isn't slow and easy - I seriously doubt that you can breeze through all of ITG without any trouble but get hung up on DDR 7s.
| A Beautiful Collision wrote: | | 6- No... most ITG players have already labeled the tempo changes in SN a gimmick. |
Which they are. I define a gimmick to be any challenge that can be quickly overcome with memorization (as opposed to an increase in skill). It's kind of a fake challenge - it looks bad at first, but turns out to be pretty easy.
| A Beautiful Collision wrote: | | 7- Most ITG players have already assigned themselves to protest and boycott |
That's because they think Konami is going to kill ITG completely. If Konami did continue making ITG and kept it the same, I don't think most ITG players would care.
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| Emptyeye wrote: | | So um, is it bad that awhile ago I was watching Family Guy, and when Quagmire came on, I thought something to the effect of "Whoa, It's AA Bob!" (I don't remember if the exact thought was "It's AA Bob" or "It's AA Bob's avatar", but I don't think it matters in this case)? |
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Synaesthesia
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| 141. Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 10:10 am Post subject: |
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| cfusionpm wrote: | | you havent played post-patch have you? or do i need to rip on itg for being horrendously out of sync pre-r16 and such? also, from what i understand, r21 makes everything early. |
ITG had some pretty badly synced songs, but there were more of them dead-on than there were on DDR. And yes, R21 fucks up syncing and makes it closer to being stupid.
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Spork
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| 142. Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 10:13 am Post subject: |
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and still the ONLY thing DDR fanboys are arguing about is the expert charts. It's like Hard Medium, and Easy do NOT exist...
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cfusionpm
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| 143. Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 10:37 am Post subject: |
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| AA Bob wrote: | | cfusionpm wrote: | | AA Bob wrote: | | However, ITG does have a tighter timing window than DDR. |
lol. no one plays courses. |
Lol, the Marvelous window is too small. |
or maybe you arent accurate enough
| Quote: | | From what I've heard, the hardware is not precise enough to guarantee than stepping in the center of the beat (even on a well-synced song) will get you a Marvelous. |
tell that to MIKE from Santee. actually, dont bother. its only what you heard, not what you deduced from doing things like setting top-10 oni records on IR. i will trust mike on that; thank you. have you even played through courses on a regular basis? or are you spouting nonsense from a single trip to play; most likely pre-patch, and creating your bias arguements on that. (much like what you are critisizing a beautiful collision for.)
| Quote: | | And even if they did use Marvs in normal play, DDR just isn't well-synced enough. |
i would hope you actually played it to come to this conclusion. but then again, you're just a home player arent you? maybe you're just used to perfect windows the size of montana and user-adjustable syncing.
| Quote: | | Do you think that they went through and carefully fixed every song for the SN update patch? I sure don't, especially since I've heard several people say that while the drifting is gone, there are still plenty of offsync songs. |
again, you say this from what appears to be no experience. who are these people that make these claims? i just find it hard for me to believe that when Mr. from Santee says otherwise. he is a ddr specialist, and knows the game inside and out.
| [wfs] Spork wrote: | | and still the ONLY thing DDR fanboys are arguing about is the expert charts. It's like Hard Medium, and Easy do NOT exist... |
i played a bunch of hard mode, and got 98-99% on most of the ones i played. the stepcharts for the vast majority of hard mode is uninspired, repetative, and frankly just not that good. many seem like an afterthought; an obligitory addition to the expert steps. there are a few exceptions, but not many. the reason that they're ignored though, is because the only reason they exist in the first place is because it would be just too ridiculous for roxor to release a game with only expert mode available. 
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AA Bob
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| 144. Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 11:31 am Post subject: |
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| cfusionpm wrote: | | Quote: | | From what I've heard, the hardware is not precise enough to guarantee than stepping in the center of the beat (even on a well-synced song) will get you a Marvelous. |
tell that to MIKE from Santee. |
Why, does he have several AAAAs and tons of SDPs? If not, then it's completely irrelevant. I'm talking about getting pad Perfects; I would much rather have a slightly larger timing window that guarantees the best judgment if I step accurately, instead of a smaller timing window where there is a slight amount of luck involved.
| cfusionpm wrote: | | you're just a home player arent you? |
Heh, I don't say this very often, but...shut up. The newest home versions all have Marvelous display in normal play, and MAing at home is a hell of a lot more difficult than PAing at the arcade.
| cfusionpm wrote: | | again, you say this from what appears to be no experience. |
Correct, I haven't played post-patch SN yet, hence "from what I've heard". If SN's syncing is actually fixed completely, then that's awesome.
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| Emptyeye wrote: | | So um, is it bad that awhile ago I was watching Family Guy, and when Quagmire came on, I thought something to the effect of "Whoa, It's AA Bob!" (I don't remember if the exact thought was "It's AA Bob" or "It's AA Bob's avatar", but I don't think it matters in this case)? |
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Syncopation
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| 145. Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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| AA Bob wrote: | | A Beautiful Collision wrote: | | And complex rhythms? Where? |
The rhythms in Utopia are more complex than any rhythms in all of DDR, expect maybe for bag's pseudo-triplets. Bend Your Mind has a rhythmically complex middle section. Euphoria's 32nd drills are pretty hard to time. Several songs have repeated offbeat sixteenths. I'm not all that familiar with ITG2, but I'm sure it has plenty of songs like those. I seem to remember Sweet World and Go 60 Go being pretty crazy. |
My own analysis of Sweet World (Expert) and Go 60 Go is that--similar to the DDR engine having issues rendering triplets--those songs are overly hard to read because the step designer is obviously trying to integrate FLAMS using the feet. As such, the resultant purple (Sweet World) or aqua (Go 60 Go) arrows are de-facto being used as the flam grace note.
| AA Bob wrote: | | A Beautiful Collision wrote: | | 4b- Mines make reading difficult? Maybe on 1x, but using 1x isn't encouraged. Bump it up to 2x speed and mines don't even make reading hard in minefields. |
Okay, I'll just bump Vertex up to x2.
Even with speed mods, I still find that mines can make reading more difficult. |
Mines are an annoyance when they force hops or stepping to the middle. Mines are purely a reading distraction when they exist just to obscure actual steps. But, I can't find any other reason for mines, other than to lower the step % and make a very loud boom noise when stepped on.
| AA Bob wrote: | | A Beautiful Collision wrote: | | 5- Um, yes, I've played the game. And most of the crossovers are type of things. I've never had a problem reading a pattern on ITG with the exception of the slow down on Euphoria EXpert which took two tries to figure out. There are plenty of crossovers, even on 7s on Supernova, that still manage to confuse me today. |
This is why I was saying that it really looks like you haven't played much ITG. Find me a 7 footer with crossover complexity that compares to the end of Bend Your Mind Expert. Also, find me a 7 footer that isn't slow and easy - I seriously doubt that you can breeze through all of ITG without any trouble but get hung up on DDR 7s. |
I'd say that for a 7 block song, Bend Your Mind Medium with its 27 hands is difficult. Also, Zodiac Hard throws crossovers, forced hops, and crossover steps while holding freezes all into the mix.... it's a challenging 7 block song. Now compare that to something more straightforward such as While The Rekkid Spins Hard, also a 7 block song.
One 7 footer that isn't slow and easy? Vertex Medium, it's definitely not slow.
(Comparing 7 block songs to 10+ block songs isn't comparing like for like.)
| AA Bob wrote: | | A Beautiful Collision wrote: | | 6- No... most ITG players have already labeled the tempo changes in SN a gimmick. |
Which they are. I define a gimmick to be any challenge that can be quickly overcome with memorization (as opposed to an increase in skill). It's kind of a fake challenge - it looks bad at first, but turns out to be pretty easy. |
Many "Smiley" songs have a half-tempo slowdown in the middle of the song, so do non-Smiley songs like Bloodrush, many of the Nina licensed songs have stops, and Vertex slows down and also speeds up.
So, while DDR Supernova may have more of those than previous mixes of DDR, ITG stepchart designers still decided to use those gimmicks in ITG1 and ITG2 before DDR Supernova was even released. |
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Mr. Kennedy
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| 146. Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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Actually Mike from Santee does have some AAAA's in oni courses, he also has a lot of sdp's a lot. Believe me unless you see him play you shouldn't consider anything of his irrelevant or for that matter anyone elses. I have nothing against home versions but ma'ing isn't extremely hard. It is a bit more challenging than pa'ing just because the window is a bit smaller. I've sdp'd home version songs 7p irresistiblment 3p 1998 and such.
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xcfrisco
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| 147. Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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What I dislike most about all of this, and is clearly evident from this thread, is how the people who wanted something different, and the people who liked the things the way they were, are forced to come together once again.
Are there actually people out there who are thrilled about the outcome about this lawsuit? Why defend Konami's actions? Is it brand loyalty that is speaking through your posts? I realize that what ITG did is illegal, making a profit off of someone else's idea, but when do we draw the line of what is borrowing someone else's idea or having an outright monopoly?
What good can come from this? People are saying that maybe Konami will start making harder charts, more mods, etc. Or they could just let the 4 panel genre stagnate, which I felt was occuring after a year and a half of Extreme, when I saw all my friends who played DDR start quitting, because they throught Extreme got boring. (I cant be the only one who saw that this was happening)
These may sound like a rant, whine, whatever. All I know now is that I have only one choice when I want to play 4-panel dancing games that use the 4 cardinal directions in the future. If I feel DDR isn't fun for me, then oh well, looks like I will just have to stop playing 4-panel dancing games then.
I'm so glad I got over my fanboyism of 4-panel dancing games last year and started playing Pump. They don't just randomly announce new mixes after a 2 and half year hiatus.
Last edited by xcfrisco on Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:23 pm, edited 1 time in total |
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Edible Bondage Tape
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| 148. Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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| [wfs] Spork wrote: | | It's like Hard Medium, and Easy do NOT exist... |
having placed the high record on the ITG 2 machine at my arcade on every easy and virtually every medium song i can safily say most of them are piss poor (not to mention the massive curt and pasteing)
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cfusionpm
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| 149. Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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| AA Bob wrote: | | cfusionpm wrote: | | Quote: | | From what I've heard, the hardware is not precise enough to guarantee than stepping in the center of the beat (even on a well-synced song) will get you a Marvelous. |
tell that to MIKE from Santee. |
Why, does he have several AAAAs and tons of SDPs? If not, then it's completely irrelevant. |
http://www.mikefromsantee.com/ddrex.html http://www.mikefromsantee.com/onicourses.html http://www.mikefromsantee.com/ddrsn.html and somewhat relevant http://www.mikefromsantee.com/ddrmax2.html oh, and he also played itg for a while; dominating survival mode; holding 17 out of the 18 world records (though, he only has 16 out of 18 now: http://www.mikefromsantee.com/itg2.html)
i really do not need to defend mike.
| Quote: | | I'm talking about getting pad Perfects; I would much rather have a slightly larger timing window that guarantees the best judgment if I step accurately, instead of a smaller timing window where there is a slight amount of luck involved. |
luck? adjust yourself. go look at the supernova IR yourself. there are plenty of people that can score marvelouses very well. you want the game to be easier; but OH WAIT, theres no challange in DDR anyway, cuz the stepcharts are all so stupid, boring, and easy.  if you are skilled enough, hitting within the marveous window is not an insurmountable task by any means; and if you get a perfect, you have to be open to the fact that it might actually be your fault (i know its a hard concept for some people to grasp).
| Quote: | | cfusionpm wrote: | | you're just a home player arent you? |
Heh, I don't say this very often, but...shut up. The newest home versions all have Marvelous display in normal play, and MAing at home is a hell of a lot more difficult than PAing at the arcade. |
i could poke fun at the notion of a "serious" home player, but it's just too easy.
| Quote: | | cfusionpm wrote: | | again, you say this from what appears to be no experience. |
Correct, I haven't played post-patch SN yet, hence "from what I've heard". If SN's syncing is actually fixed completely, then that's awesome. |
so... you shut up until you have something substantial to add. if other people have their experience, let them post. because since you havent played, you obviously dont know for sure what you are talking about. you sat and gave ABC crap for doing what you are doing now.
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Syncopation
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| 150. Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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| xcfrisco wrote: | | Are there actually people out there who are thrilled about the outcome about this lawsuit? Why defend Konami's actions? Is it brand loyalty that is speaking through your posts? I realize that what ITG did is illegal, making a profit off of someone else's idea, but when do we draw the line of what is borrowing someone else's idea or having an outright monopoly? |
The outcome is justified. Stepmania itself was a grey area because it wasn't getting sold. ITG and ITG2 Boxors were sold, converting DDR cabinets to ITG and taking an older but perfectly playable DDR game out of play.
Also keep in mind that the ultimate goal seemed to be to get a Stepmania cabinet in the arcades. ITG was apparently the start of that, and ITG2 with the R21 patch seems to be as far as it could go before the justifiable legal action finally took place.
| xcfrisco wrote: | | What good can come from this? People are saying that maybe Konami will start making harder charts, more mods, etc. Or they could just let the 4 panel genre stagnate, which I felt was occuring after a year and a half of Extreme, when I saw all my friends who played DDR start quitting, because they throught Extreme got boring. (I cant be the only one who saw that this was happening) |
What about Double play? What about the hard-to-find but still playable DDR Solo Bass/Solo 2000/Solo 4th 6-arrow gameplay? Sure, Double is more expensive, but there are a lot more challenging patterns in Double beyond the single 4-arrow play. So, when Extreme got boring, was that just for 4-arrow play mode?
Furthermore, mods are just gimmicks, designed to make reading the arrows more difficult, and they aren't fun unless player-enabled for an additional challenge vs. losing money in the arcade due to forced blinker or hyper speed mods on already challenging songs.
Harder charts don't always have to follow every barely audible subtle part of a song either--that's just playing Beatmania IIDX with the feet. |
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AA Bob
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| 151. Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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If Mike from Santee does indeed have a bunch of AAAAs and says that the Marv window isn't too small for the hardware, then I believe it. I wish I could find the post where I heard about it in the first place, but it doesn't seem to exist anymore.
Then again, it doesn't really matter anyway since Marvs still aren't available in normal play, where they're most useful (not just for those who want to play specific songs, but in tournaments as well).
| Syncopation wrote: | | AA Bob wrote: | | A Beautiful Collision wrote: | | 5- Um, yes, I've played the game. And most of the crossovers are type of things. I've never had a problem reading a pattern on ITG with the exception of the slow down on Euphoria EXpert which took two tries to figure out. There are plenty of crossovers, even on 7s on Supernova, that still manage to confuse me today. |
This is why I was saying that it really looks like you haven't played much ITG. Find me a 7 footer with crossover complexity that compares to the end of Bend Your Mind Expert. Also, find me a 7 footer that isn't slow and easy - I seriously doubt that you can breeze through all of ITG without any trouble but get hung up on DDR 7s. |
I'd say that for a 7 block song, Bend Your Mind Medium with its 27 hands is difficult. Also, Zodiac Hard throws crossovers, forced hops, and crossover steps while holding freezes all into the mix.... it's a challenging 7 block song. Now compare that to something more straightforward such as While The Rekkid Spins Hard, also a 7 block song.
One 7 footer that isn't slow and easy? Vertex Medium, it's definitely not slow. |
I meant 7-foot DDR songs. Also, I meant easy more than I meant slow. I was saying that I'd like to see some of these big bad DDR 7s that confuse someone who claims to have no trouble with any patterns in ITG.
| Syncopation wrote: | | AA Bob wrote: | | A Beautiful Collision wrote: | | 6- No... most ITG players have already labeled the tempo changes in SN a gimmick. |
Which they are. I define a gimmick to be any challenge that can be quickly overcome with memorization (as opposed to an increase in skill). It's kind of a fake challenge - it looks bad at first, but turns out to be pretty easy. |
Many "Smiley" songs have a half-tempo slowdown in the middle of the song, so do non-Smiley songs like Bloodrush, many of the Nina licensed songs have stops, and Vertex slows down and also speeds up. |
I don't mind the stops as long as the steps themselves are difficult. If they aren't, then the song becomes easy pretty quickly. If the song is supposed to be easy, then it's still not a big deal. When the song is given a high rating because of its reading difficulty, it's just wasting one of the slots for difficult songs (which is much more of a big deal in DDR because it has so few hard songs).
Edit:
| cfusionpm wrote: | | you want the game to be easier |
No, I just want to ensure that luck is not a factor. I'm learning now that it might not be, so that's cool.
| cfusionpm wrote: | | but OH WAIT, theres no challange in DDR anyway, cuz the stepcharts are all so stupid, boring, and easy. |
Most of them may be easy, but they're certainly not stupid or boring.
| cfusionpm wrote: | | i could poke fun at the notion of a "serious" home player, but it's just too easy. |
No, please do. I'd be interested to hear it. Keep in mind that not everybody has regular access to an arcade, and that sometimes we just have to work with what we're given.
| cfusionpm wrote: | | so... you shut up until you have something substantial to add. if other people have their experience, let them post. because since you havent played, you obviously dont know for sure what you are talking about. you sat and gave ABC crap for doing what you are doing now. |
I was going off of something I had heard several times before. If it's wrong, then yes, I was incorrect.
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| Emptyeye wrote: | | So um, is it bad that awhile ago I was watching Family Guy, and when Quagmire came on, I thought something to the effect of "Whoa, It's AA Bob!" (I don't remember if the exact thought was "It's AA Bob" or "It's AA Bob's avatar", but I don't think it matters in this case)? |
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triad.spacefight
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Mr. Kennedy
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| 153. Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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yet you did.
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cfusionpm
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| 154. Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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| [DoD] OmegaSox wrote: | | Oh, and cfusion, stop talking about MFS in every single post. It's great that you have a friend that is good at a dancing game. That has nothing to do with your arguement with Bob or anyone else for that matter. |
its entirely relevant. the claim was made that the machine hardware cant even register marvelouses properly, and i have a friend that held a north american record for a particular oni course (with marvelouses) and is multiple top internet ranking sites for pretty much every oni course; max2 through supernova. he has enough skill and technique to get marvelouses (not to mention all the japanese players that score even higher), so it really cant be blamed on the mechanics of the machine, when its obvious there are more than a few people able to cope with it.
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TheManator
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| 155. Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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| cfusionpm wrote: | | [DoD] OmegaSox wrote: | | Oh, and cfusion, stop talking about MFS in every single post. It's great that you have a friend that is good at a dancing game. That has nothing to do with your arguement with Bob or anyone else for that matter. |
its entirely relevant. the claim was made that the machine hardware cant even register marvelouses properly, and i have a friend that held a north american record for a particular oni course (with marvelouses) and is multiple top internet ranking sites for pretty much every oni course; max2 through supernova. he has enough skill and technique to get marvelouses (not to mention all the japanese players that score even higher), so it really cant be blamed on the mechanics of the machine, when its obvious there are more than a few people able to cope with it. |
And another reason to say that the hardcore players are a minority.
But being on topic: Mike knows the game(s) backwards and forwards, and if he says there is no problem, then I'd have to believe him than others who are obviously not that familiar with the hardware like he is. |
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Edible Bondage Tape
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| 156. Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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| [DoD] OmegaSox wrote: | | Exclusive Bonus Track wrote: | | [wfs] Spork wrote: | | It's like Hard Medium, and Easy do NOT exist... |
having placed the high record on the ITG 2 machine at my arcade on every easy and virtually every medium song i can safily say most of them are piss poor (not to mention the massive curt and pasteing) |
I can also say that they aren't piss poor. Who's opinion is right?
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mine
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Synaesthesia
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| 157. Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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Edit: forget it; the people whose opinions actually matter already know what I was going to point out.
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Spork
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| 158. Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Exclusive Bonus Track wrote: | | [DoD] OmegaSox wrote: | | Exclusive Bonus Track wrote: | | [wfs] Spork wrote: | | It's like Hard Medium, and Easy do NOT exist... |
having placed the high record on the ITG 2 machine at my arcade on every easy and virtually every medium song i can safily say most of them are piss poor (not to mention the massive curt and pasteing) |
I can also say that they aren't piss poor. Who's opinion is right?
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mine |
wow, no ego here, huh?
I will admit you are entitled to your own opinion, but when you try to force other people to have the same opinion, that is when the trouble starts.
I'll admit, I'm an ITG player. But I do play DDR from time to time. And it's tiomes liek this when people refuse to get along and/or even LISTEN to one another that make me want to just quit playing the games altogether.
Can we try to at least accept each others existance, jesus.
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DAF
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| 159. Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with spork. I personally prefer ITG over DDR, and I don't give a flying fuck what anyone else says.
If you prefer DDR, then that's wonderful for you. I enjoy that game as well. I just happen to like ITG more. So who cares?
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