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Emptyeye
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Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Location: Waterbury, CT |
340.  Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 8:58 am Post subject: |
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| Cutriss wrote: |
When I say "In The Groove is not dead", I say that because Konami has not stated whether or not they plan to continue the series. You might not consider whatever they end up putting out the door to be ITG. That's your choice, but whatever your arguments, it will still be a game called In The Groove, and thus it is an In The Groove game. |
I completely agree with this. Of course, everything is speculation at this point, but my understanding of what Konami actually got with this lawsuit says that, while ROXOR can no longer produce a game called In the Groove that has the basic DDR gameplay (Four arrow mat, hit arrows at top of screen, etc), there's nothing stopping KONAMI from making a game called In the Groove with said gameplay. Any In the Groove 3 that ultimately comes out will of course be different than the ITG3 that Roxor was developing--unless there are other settlement terms that haven't been mentioned yet--but, as you said, it'll still officially be "In the Groove 3".
Whether they'll actually go ahead and do this, of course, remains to be seen. I personally think that the self-competition angle would be a good one to take, as ITG generally caters to a different audience than DDR, but whether they'll go that route (And keep ITG dissimilar enough from DDR that this will continue to hold true if they do), we don't know yet.
| Cutriss wrote: | | As an additive to this, I'm pretty certain SuperNOVA runs on the same hardware as DS Fusion, which was released to market in Spring '05, so this hardware has been developed for a little while. I don't think they made the hardware *specifically* for DS Fusion and then said "Well gee, let's use this on a new DDR game too!"...I think that, for whatever reason, it just took them a while to get things moving on SuperNOVA. |
I didn't know that about the hardware being used previously. Even still, though, I don't think that conclusively says that SN was developed with the purpose of killing ITG, though it does make it more likely.
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Sex + Violence
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Joined: 08 Oct 2005
Location: SHOOTING A HO. |
| 341. Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 8:58 am Post subject: |
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Wow, way to repost the rest of the thread.
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AA Bob
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Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Alllll right! |
| 342. Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:06 am Post subject: |
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| Ski Hawk wrote: | | I am going to add on to what Sir Orion said here. As it was said earlier, Konami ONLY owns In The Groove, not Roxor or any of its staff. |
For all we know, that could change.
| Ski Hawk wrote: | | That means no Kyle Ward or any of his aliases, and Konami would have to hire the other artists from ITG to continue making songs, and I doubt Konami would go through that trouble. |
It's the difference between keeping or losing a very devoted, avid group of fans. It would be very worth it for Konami to hire Kyle et al and continue ITG.
| Ski Hawk wrote: | | Even if Konami did continue ITG, Im betting that it would only be DDR artists making ITG songs with harder stepcharts, would would technically make it a harder DDR game, which it was ITG was in the first place. |
I'm reading that as "it wouldn't be like ITG, it would be like a harder DDR, which would be like ITG." Doesn't make any sense. Are you just saying that we'd still have ITG but it would be called something different? That wouldn't matter at all.
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| Emptyeye wrote: | | So um, is it bad that awhile ago I was watching Family Guy, and when Quagmire came on, I thought something to the effect of "Whoa, It's AA Bob!" (I don't remember if the exact thought was "It's AA Bob" or "It's AA Bob's avatar", but I don't think it matters in this case)? |
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Chilly Cha Cha
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Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Location: AlbaNectaTroy, NY |
| 343. Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:31 am Post subject: |
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| Emptyeye wrote: | | I completely agree with this. Of course, everything is speculation at this point, but my understanding of what Konami actually got with this lawsuit says that, while ROXOR can no longer produce a game called In the Groove that has the basic DDR gameplay (Four arrow mat, hit arrows at top of screen, etc), there's nothing stopping KONAMI from making a game called In the Groove with said gameplay. Any In the Groove 3 that ultimately comes out will of course be different than the ITG3 that Roxor was developing--unless there are other settlement terms that haven't been mentioned yet--but, as you said, it'll still officially be "In the Groove 3". |
But that is completely ignoring the fact that nothing at all prevents Konami from hiring Roxor to finish ITG3 and to make all future ITG releases, but just under Konami's direction and control. Roxor has obviously demonstrated that they are at least competent in making ITG1 and ITG2. It appears that Konami recognized that ITG has at least some value - I would postulate that the value Konami recognized in ITG is that the ITG game appears to cater slightly better to a North American demographic in terms of song selection and appearance - its not an Japanese/Engrish game - but it's a real American game. Perhaps that is the value Konami sees in the game and Roxor's development - of course Roxor could say no to such a proposal (to be third party developer of ITG for Konami) that would be their choice, and, should Roxor do that, that would likely keep ITG from being the ITG as we all know it. Then again, maybe there is too much hard feeling on both sides - but that's just bullshit because face it - this is business, not personal. If both stand to gain from such a collaboration (if it appears that it could likely be profitable), then if either company should say no to such arrangement then the shareholders should seriously question the motives of the directors of that company.
Another thing that has bothered me about this entire thread is that everyone seems to be assuming that Konami got everything and Roxor got nothing. We don't know anything about the specific terms of the settlement, and if it is confidential (as it very likely is) we won't ever really know the truth.
Let me point this out, it is very likely that Roxor got something in exchange for the ITG IP rights = $$$ - hey maybe not, maybe they just got Konami dropping the lawsuit - but I, for one, am not so certain about that. To make a settlement without going to trial each side assess their possible chances of winning and losing which brings up my next point:
Everyone also is assuming that this proves Konami was correct all along. Fanboyism aside that is complete bunk. This proves nothing, the only thing that would have settled the issue about who ultimately was right and wrong would have been a trial verdict - that will never happen now. The lawyers, in evaluating the situation, may have concluded Konami's case may have been stronger in which case Roxor got less for its game, on the other hand, the lawyers could have concluded that Konami's position was not as strong as people are assuming and therefore, because Konami didn't want a potentially bad precedent set against their patent's etc, they made an offer to the Roxor guys that they simply could not refuse.
The point is - you need to examine all the subtlties involved and not assume we ever will know the truth of what happened - EVEN IF the Roxor guys deny all this - in fact they will likely be required to deny all of this based on the confidentiality of the settlement.
Last edited by Chilly Cha Cha on Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total |
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cfusionpm
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Joined: 24 Jan 2002
Location: San Diego, CA |
| 344. Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:35 am Post subject: |
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| AA Bob wrote: | | Ski Hawk wrote: | | I am going to add on to what Sir Orion said here. As it was said earlier, Konami ONLY owns In The Groove, not Roxor or any of its staff. |
For all we know, that could change.
| Ski Hawk wrote: | | That means no Kyle Ward or any of his aliases, and Konami would have to hire the other artists from ITG to continue making songs, and I doubt Konami would go through that trouble. |
It's the difference between keeping or losing a very devoted, avid group of fans. It would be very worth it for Konami to hire Kyle et al and continue ITG. |
this very devoted, avid goup of fans is also a microscopic percentage of overall players, and it would NOT be "very" worth it for konami. it might be "nice" of them, but it is hardly some top priority for them to go out of their way to specifically cater to a tiny, tiny, niche market.
snakes on a plane.
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TheManator
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Joined: 05 May 2004
Location: Sometimes in Orlando |
| 345. Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 11:13 am Post subject: |
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I am just waiting for Konami's other buyouts become public.
Oops, I didn't say that.
I am waiting to have my buttocks get kicked by a cat now. |
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Loogaroo
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Joined: 06 Feb 2002
Location: Glendale, CA |
| 346. Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 11:54 am Post subject: |
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| cfusionpm wrote: | | this very devoted, avid goup of fans is also a microscopic percentage of overall players, and it would NOT be "very" worth it for konami. |
They may be a small portion of the fanbase (although I doubt it's as small as you think - no way in hell it's only 1%), but this fanbase probably puts in at least three times as much money into arcade machines as the casual fans do since they play more often and play more games in one session. So even if the ITG fanbase is smaller than DDR's total audience, they still bring in enough money on their own for Konami to want to cater to them.
And let's think about it - what does Konami need to do in order to win the ITG audience back? Not a whole lot. The two games are already very similar - if they weren't, there wouldn't have been a lawsuit in the first place. The only salient gameplay differences I can think of are:
- Mines, hands and rolls
- One extra timing judgement (which DDR already has but just not in main gameplay)
- More modifiers (and Marathon courses that employ them)
That's about it. Everything else is mostly interface. I don't think it would take a whole lot of effort to implement those elements into DDR.
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cfusionpm
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Joined: 24 Jan 2002
Location: San Diego, CA |
| 347. Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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| I Palindrome I wrote: | | cfusionpm wrote: | | this very devoted, avid goup of fans is also a microscopic percentage of overall players, and it would NOT be "very" worth it for konami. |
They may be a small portion of the fanbase (although I doubt it's as small as you think - no way in hell it's only 1%), but this fanbase probably puts in at least three times as much money into arcade machines as the casual fans do since they play more often and play more games in one session. So even if the ITG fanbase is smaller than DDR's total audience, they still bring in enough money on their own for Konami to want to cater to them. |
i saw an amazing arcade go under and out of business because of that. it was Golden Token Amusement in San Diego. it was easilly the best arcade in all of SD county and had a religiously strong "fanbase" of regulars; me included; who would dump 10-20$ a day into that place at least once a week. yeah he made more money from us than any single normal player, but the big money is not made from regulars. big money is made through the endless flow of casual and new players. if, as an owner, you could chose to have one person spend 20$ on one game or 30 people spend 2-3$ on a game, which would you chose?
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Loogaroo
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Joined: 06 Feb 2002
Location: Glendale, CA |
| 348. Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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Why can't Konami have both?
You're talking as if Konami would be forced to spurn its casual fanbase just to give the more advanced players the features they had in ITG. Suppose Konami came out with a patch for SuperNova next month that would allow support for hands and mines, with maybe a dozen new songs that implement them in their stepcharts. I doubt it would be that hard for them to do it (Ultramix already has "poison arrows"), and the stepcharts already in the game would be unaffected, so casual players wouldn't have to be confronted with the new steps if they didn't want to.
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Kyo Yuy
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Joined: 08 Dec 2004
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| 349. Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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One thing that doesn't logically follow, to me, is that some of you have been saying that "Konami sued Roxor because they saw ITG as a threat to their sales," then follow that statement with "There's no way Konami would continue ITG since it caters to an extremely small portion of fans."
I will say this much: if Konami didn't see ITG as a threat to their sales, then they most likely wouldn't press charges.
There are so many other four panel dancing games out there (Dance Praise, Urban Dance Rising, BRITNEY'S DANCE GROOVE LOLZ), as well as a few arcade ones - none of them, however, received the popularity that ITG received.
I think, at the least, it is safe to say that Konami definitely did consider In the Groove to be a threat to their sales. Therefore, I think the statement that Konami would not continue ITG because it doesn't cater to a large number of fans would be misleading and somewhat of a contradiction.
I think, if Konami really did completely stop production of ITG, it would be because it doesn't want to manage two different dance games at the same time.
Quite frankly, I think Konami WOULD profit from letting Roxor Games continue independently and receiving all their earnings. However, it is not my choice to determine what happens to ITG. |
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ghosx
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Joined: 21 Oct 2004
Location: Your heart |
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Edible Bondage Tape
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Joined: 26 Jan 2002
Location: Kerri |
| 351. Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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i lolled so hard i almost dropped the bowl when iheard this
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AA Bob
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Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Alllll right! |
| 352. Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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| I Palindrome I wrote: | And let's think about it - what does Konami need to do in order to win the ITG audience back? Not a whole lot. The two games are already very similar - if they weren't, there wouldn't have been a lawsuit in the first place. The only salient gameplay differences I can think of are:
- Mines, hands and rolls
- More modifiers (and Marathon courses that employ them) |
I don't think that those two are the reasons the hardcore ITG fans don't like DDR as much. The harder timing is certainly part of it, but I think the main reason is the harder stepcharts. I'm guessing that if Konami came out with a new DDR that was only different from the standard DDR game in the ways you listed, it would only win back a small portion of the ITG audience.
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| Emptyeye wrote: | | So um, is it bad that awhile ago I was watching Family Guy, and when Quagmire came on, I thought something to the effect of "Whoa, It's AA Bob!" (I don't remember if the exact thought was "It's AA Bob" or "It's AA Bob's avatar", but I don't think it matters in this case)? |
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Uiru
Contributor
Joined: 25 Sep 2003
Location: the floating castle of Newfoundland |
| 353. Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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Plus, Konami would be accused of ripping off ITG.
It's strange that a group comprised almost entirely of males can be heard to shriek as one "Harder! Harder! HARDER!". Something to ponder.
~Uiru
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Chaos Master
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Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Location: Westerville, OH |
| 354. Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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| AA Bob wrote: |
I don't think that those two are the reasons the hardcore ITG fans don't like DDR as much. The harder timing is certainly part of it, but I think the main reason is the harder stepcharts. I'm guessing that if Konami came out with a new DDR that was only different from the standard DDR game in the ways you listed, it would only win back a small portion of the ITG audience. |
i, for one, like ITG better because it has (for the most part) better stepcharts. they make more sense, they are more fun, and they make give ITG an edge over DDR. whatever Konami does, i hope it involves hiring ITG stepartists (except M. Emirzian  ) |
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KingofLight06
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Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Location: Syracuse, NY & Rochester, NY |
| 355. Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Chaos Master wrote: | | AA Bob wrote: |
I don't think that those two are the reasons the hardcore ITG fans don't like DDR as much. The harder timing is certainly part of it, but I think the main reason is the harder stepcharts. I'm guessing that if Konami came out with a new DDR that was only different from the standard DDR game in the ways you listed, it would only win back a small portion of the ITG audience. |
i, for one, like ITG better because it has (for the most part) better stepcharts. they make more sense, they are more fun, and they make give ITG an edge over DDR. whatever Konami does, i hope it involves hiring ITG stepartists (except M. Emirzian ) |
Oh, he made some great charts for ITG3 doubles. Look at Esperanza expert, it's really good.
I don't think it's ironic that we wanted harder charts in DDR, and we complain about them being too hard. We want hard charts that are more sensible, in that there doesn't need to be a BPM higher than 300 or a lot of stops. Xepher, of course is the exception to this.
And don't get me wrong, I like the tens in Supernova, but I feel that I'm just stating the general feelings of the community that wanted harder charts on DDR.
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| One Bad Apple wrote: | | KingofLight06 wrote: | | Eh, it's not that bad. When you're playing Single, and you're really tuned in, you hardly even notice it. |
Everytime I read this, I see "Eh, it's not that bad. When you're single, and really turned on, you hardly even notice it" |
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Kilroy(ZTC)
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Joined: 04 Mar 2005
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| 356. Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Cutriss wrote: | | Just...stop right there. I don't think I even need to state why. |
You don't need to, but if you want me to be left with anything but half decent guesses at what you mean you should make a statement. Irony, inductive logic would be used to narrow down my guesses. My best guess is that you are simply an impatient person who considers any attempt to analyze or criticize anything to be a mark of impetousness. In laymens terms, I think you imagine me to be doing nothing more than wasting your time. |
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cfusionpm
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Joined: 24 Jan 2002
Location: San Diego, CA |
| 357. Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Kyo Yuy wrote: | | One thing that doesn't logically follow, to me, is that some of you have been saying that "Konami sued Roxor because they saw ITG as a threat to their sales," then follow that statement with "There's no way Konami would continue ITG since it caters to an extremely small portion of fans." |
well i have personally made that first claim; and its ridiculous to do so anyway. the lawsuit was over roxor forcing people to rip open konami's ddr cabinets, tear out konami's internals, and install roxor's game without konami's permission.
| Quote: | | I will say this much: if Konami didn't see ITG as a threat to their sales, then they most likely wouldn't press charges. |
yes, because roxor stealing the use of another company's machine without their permission is A-OK. itg was in no way a thread to DDR as a whole; home or arcade.
| Quote: | | There are so many other four panel dancing games out there (Dance Praise, Urban Dance Rising, BRITNEY'S DANCE GROOVE LOLZ), as well as a few arcade ones - none of them, however, received the popularity that ITG received. |
ive never even heard of the first two and after a quick google search, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING even turned up for Urban Dance Rising, and it seems dance praise is not an infringement on anything (not to mention so completely unheard of, it probably wouldnt matter). while britneys dance beat is a completely different kind of game entirely; with controls designed for use with a normal dual shock controller (much like bust a groove).
| Quote: | | I think, at the least, it is safe to say that Konami definitely did consider In the Groove to be a threat to their sales. Therefore, I think the statement that Konami would not continue ITG because it doesn't cater to a large number of fans would be misleading and somewhat of a contradiction. |
whats the contradiction? because it doesnt cater to a large number of people, it wont make as much money as DDR, thus there isnt a motivation to continue it. its a simple deduction. whether its accurate or not though, can only be said once konami makes an official announcement.
| Quote: | | I think, if Konami really did completely stop production of ITG, it would be because it doesn't want to manage two different dance games at the same time. |
i do not agree at all. see: HP/Compaq
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Nicotine
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Joined: 12 Nov 2002
Location: Ontario Canada |
| 358. Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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ok.
you know what sucks.
fanboys on both sides of the fence. you guys are FUK1N morons.
you know what's better then ddr OR itg? having both at your disposeal.
I love going to marvel or midway (in niagara falls), play a whole crapload of ddr, then play a whole crapload of itg2.
it's great.
I like ddr, cuz it's what i "grew up" on (per say).
I like itg, because after YEARS of playing extreme with NO NEW OFFERINGS from konami, WHO DIDN'T CARE ABOUT NORTH AMERICA it got BORING. (dont even say "LOL! WE GOT EXTREME IN ARCADES!!"). cuz they dont care. the last usa mix was YEARS AND YEARS ago. EXTREME WAS NEVER MEANT TO SEE NORTH AMERICA. KONAMI DOESN'T CARE ABOUT YOU.
ITG brought fresh songs, charts, and idea's to NORTH AMERICA, after YEARS of nothing.
I find most who hate itg, are "I LOVE IIDX! I LOVE THE FACT EVERY SONG IN EVERY MIX IS THE SAME AS THE LAST, EXCEPT 2 NEW SONGS!"
oh wait, i forgot the LOL in there...so, use your imagination, throw in a few LOL's and it sums up most posts on this board.
oh, and the people who hate itg, cuz butterfly isn't on it (hah). sorry the charts are hard. maybe the charts arn't hard, but the fact that maybe you suck is the reason you hate itg? even locally, all the ddr hardcore fanboys can't pass anything on itg. all they do, is play the same songs on iidx and ddr all day long and refuse to embrace anything new.
like......i grew up on konami. contra 1, blades of steel, and the list goes on.
but, when it's obvious a company doesnt give a sh!t, what else are you to do?
ITG was great, cuz it showed KONAMI that there was a real market here. enuff so, that they felt threatened.
and i think it's ITG we have to thank for supernova...... remember your first thought when you heard of supernova? "HOLY CRAP!"....yeah..... the feeling of being abandoned has all but been forgotten by most it seems.
I love konami. but it's obvious that they don't care untill only recently.
If konami allowed roxor to make itg3/4/5, but just took a percentage, that would be amazing.
cuz, im not gonna choose one over the other. NO ONE SHOULD.
and, just because you like one more then the other, doesnt mean the other sucks. it exists, because people have different tastes. personally, I like both. they BOTH have their good points and bad points.
in closing of my rant (sorry if it seems long....), RESPECT each others choices and tastes. just because you like ddr more, or itg more, doesn't make the other game any less fun for others.
it's not a god damn sports team. you guys act like it is......
edit: as for the "konami may not wanna manage 2 dancing games" mentality..... why not?... why not allow roxor to roll with it, take a percentage and not have to do any work for that percentage? sounds like win win to me.
then again, PEOPLE NEED TO STOP SPECULATING. 12 yr olds on a ddr forum wont change ANYTHING that has happened. go play some ddr AND itg, wait, and enjoy what you already have.
people are ungrateful.
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Last edited by Nicotine on Sat Oct 21, 2006 7:36 pm, edited 1 time in total |
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Rajjab
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Joined: 02 Nov 2004
Location: Lasalle, Montreal, Canada |
| 359. Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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if there won't be a new ITG release in the future, DDR won't make one either. Supernova was created mainly to get ITGers, back to DDR. now with ITG out of the picture (which for me REALLY SUX) DDR won't make another arcade release.
i am strictly a doubles player, and i've had a taste of both ITG and Supernova. personally, ITG offers me a challenge, i didn't really find on Supernova.
plus i HATE j-pop, i cannot stand it. i'm sure many ppl are like "omggg i hate ITG because there's NO j-pop in it (insert japanese frowning face here)"
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sup i play Gunbound also