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Char
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220.  Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Cutriss wrote: |
Here's a so-so example - Linksys makes products that function well on a low-end scale, and can be hacked to meet or beat features in some Cisco products. Cisco buys Linksys. Rather than simply kill off Linksys and continue charging extra money for Cisco products, Cisco is continuing the Linksys brand while still offering Cisco for those who would prefer it.
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No, your example is apples and oranges.
In my example, Company A sues Company B and ends up owning the rights to Company B's flagship product. Said product is never updated again and Company A own the rights for the sole reason of preventing distribution, as the legal owners.
In your example, Company A sees that there is a business advantage to purchasing Company B's product and purchases Company B. They continue to develop Company B's brand as a seperate product line.
Which of these compares more to the Konami/Roxor scenario?
This is all besides my point anyway, which is that it's a viable prediction to assume that Konami will shelve the ITG series now that they own it, especially since it's happened in the past. My point was that you have no room to ridicule anyone who thinks this, unless you're privy to some classified information that the rest of us don't know about.
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| AJ 187 wrote: | | If your dance game makes Arch0wl and jsb quit, SOMETHING IS WRONG |
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toady007
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Joined: 22 Nov 2002
Location: Mountain View, CA |
| 221. Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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| cfusionpm wrote: | | the hardcore itg players also do not in any way make up a majority of dance game players (i'd rougly estimate <1% in the US). those who would go through the time and effort to make or put songs on a flash drive; even less. i think your perspective is skewed a bit. |
Hold your horses there, partner. I never said that hardcore ITG players make up a large fraction of the market as a whole. One percent is probably accurate.
However, ITG AC was successful because of that hardcore fanbase. You have 15 hardcore players in an area (I consider "hardcore" to be just 3+ hours a week), and you have a machine that is constantly making money. To ignore the power the hardcore fanbase of ITG had on the arcade market is to ignore the reason why the game was successful at all. Those hardcore players supported the machines enough that it gave Roxor reason to expand. The ITG home version wasn't successful because ITG was designed around the hardcore DDR/ITG fanbase and is a niche audience out of a niche market and didn't have the opportunity for repeat business.
Nearly every single person on ITGFreak with an R21 machine already has a flashdrive, and would willingly use it to put the songs on it. That "small" group on ITGFreak has people that go to every arcade in the country, and word of mouth will spread fast. What's that, the opportunity to create your own songs and mixes and play them on arcade pads? Isn't that almost every player's dream since the creation of DDR?
| cheesecake wrote: | | If you want to show off your AAA's or new records on the intarwebs, getting a *** on them on in the groove isn't the same as actually AAA'ing them on an OFFICIAL konami dance arcade machine. |
If you would rather play bad songs to impress your friends with your scores instead of just playing the game because you enjoy the game, you need to take a step back and re-evaluate your life.
| Cutriss wrote: | | Also, you lose the Internet ranking system and competitive high-score ranking on custom songs. Custom songs can't go in Marathons (as far as I know). And there's always the possibility for new gameplay modes. Not if you stick with R21. |
What is the point of competition when there is no reward? Roxor was offering $10,000 prizes for its tournaments. That's not going to happen anymore. No more Nationals, Worlds, Euros, whatever you want to call them. Even that was barely enough to get a competitive community going again, Nationals in Texas had a pretty sad turn out. Internet ranking systems are not going to motivate an already slowing arcade niche that just the year before had tournaments that offered truckloads of money and prizes. Unless Konami wants to hold official world tournaments where players can get real recognition, I don't see the competitive aspect returning to what it was prior to this.
| Cutriss wrote: | | I'm personally of the belief that anyone who cites R21 as a "endgame maneuver" to dancing games is doing nothing but having sour grapes over the perceived "loss" of In The Groove. In case I didn't spell it out enough for you...that's "fanboy". |
I don't even play In The Groove anymore, but thanks for the little jab at me anyway. I fail to see how I'm "being a fanboy" by citing logical reasons why Konami wouldn't release a new arcade mix. It's really great that you hate In The Groove and have no idea what the community actually does, but it is insulting to ITG and even DDR players who expect to have an adminstrator of all people who shows respect to different viewpoints, especially ones that you haven't fully refuted.
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Loogaroo
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Joined: 06 Feb 2002
Location: Glendale, CA |
| 222. Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Cutriss wrote: | | Unless you're one of those people that thinks Konami is taking In The Groove just to shut it down and spite you. In which case, I don't think you're going to be happy in any case so you should just get on with your life and quit being emo. |
That's not an entirely fair assessment.
Most of us realize that SuperNova was pretty much thrown together in order to demonstrate to the courts the supposed effect ITG was having on their market share and put pressure on RoxoR to settle out of court on their terms. So while I think that there's a good chance that all of this angst is over nothing and ITG will chug merrily along under Konami's watchful eye, I also think that it's equally likely that Konami is going to shelve the ITG brand indefinitely, we're never going to see another arcade mix again (now that SuperNova's job has been accomplished), and the only DDR releases we'll be looking forward to in the future will be more Ultramix pap where all the songs are Britney Spears and disco covers with 6-foot Heavy steps.
Bear in mind - all of this paranoia (OMG PARANOIA PUN PUN) over Konami's acquisition of ITG would be to a far lesser degree if SuperNova were a good game. It's not. It's absolutely horrible. The interface is clumsy and misleading, the scoring system is still the same old "100 million points" garbage that went out of style the nanosecond people started paying attention to step counts, there's no support for memory cards much less USB drives which eliminates any chance to make edit files or track scores, and their idea of a challenging stepchart is a whole bunch of random tempo changes. Oh, and did I mention the syncing issues, which all but destroy its worth as a competitive game?
I'm trying to stay optimistic about the situation, and all the signs are currently indicating that ITG fans don't need to panic just yet. But still - Konami cared very little about arcade DDR this time two years ago, so I don't blame anyone for being cynical about what this means for the future of dancing games in America.
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Wolfman Jake
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| 223. Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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| GG EA wrote: | | ...the scoring system is still the same old "100 million points" garbage that went out of style the nanosecond people started paying attention to step counts... |
You do realize that SuperNOVA uses the same scoring system as ITG, just with a different presentation, right? That 10 million point display is simply the ITG percentage with more decimal places. A score of 9,437,862 on DDR SN would be like an ITG score of 94.38%. Magic! The ONLY difference is that DDR no longer penalizes you for step judgments below Good. Also, all of your "interface" blathering and synching woes were addressed with the update to SN. If you knew what you were talking about at all, people might be more inclined to take your opinions seriously.
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Loogaroo
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Joined: 06 Feb 2002
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| 224. Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Wolfman Jake wrote: | | Also, all of your "interface" blathering and synching woes were addressed with the update to SN. |
So if I choose the "Expert" setting when I start a game, it won't remove certain songs from the available songlist? If so, then that's great, because I thought it was totally retarded that they wouldn't just have all songs playable no matter what difficulty level you chose.
But it still doesn't address the lack of memory card or USB support. That, personally, is just as important as the scoring mechanism, because even if you're right and the scoring is a percentage taken to 7 decimal places, it doesn't do much good if there's no way to record your score.
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toady007
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Joined: 22 Nov 2002
Location: Mountain View, CA |
| 225. Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Wolfman Jake wrote: | | Also, all of your "interface" blathering and synching woes were addressed with the update to SN. If you knew what you were talking about at all, people might be more inclined to take your opinions seriously. |
I like what you did there, you picked one thing out of like twenty he listed that you found incorrect, and then called the rest of it blather and didn't bother to refute it.
Next time you post I think I'm going to just say "Oh yeah, well wolfmen don't really exist!" and ignore your argument.
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Wolfman Jake
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| 226. Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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The "Easy/Medium/Difficult" (there's no difficulty sort called "Expert") categories are there to provide a default song list, catered to the indicated difficulty level, that is about a third as large as the total song list when "All Music" is displayed. This helps novice players more quickly find songs, instead of scrolling through 300 song every time. You don't like this? Select "All Music." It's not that hard, and it's mechanically no different that moving the cursor from Beginner to Heavy on EXTREME. You probably don't even know this, but DDR EXTREME AC didn't show you all the available songs on default sort, ever. You had to choose another sorting option like ABC or Series Sort (which can't be used now that SN is an international release) to see all the songs available. Also, the SuperNOVA machine records your score, IF you're top dog. Japan gets it MUCH better because of the eAmuse system, which US arcades are ill-equipped to support. SuperNOVA DOES feature individual score tracking, just not in the US (or Europe).
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pags
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Joined: 17 Jul 2004
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| 227. Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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just as toady said how ddrsn is a joke in cali, ddrsn has died quite a bit in PA. The first month it came out, there were 2 machines in my area, about 40 minutes apart. Everyone rushed to play it. They played it consistently for a month or two. One of the arcades has SN and ITG2, the other has SN and DDRex. After 2 months, everyone started to realize how poopy it was. I played 2 rounds of SN and went back to the ddrex machine. All of the ddr fanboys went back to playing ddrex, and most of the people at the other arcade played ITG2 on the upgrade in that arcade or drove 20 minutes to our hacked dedicab.
Then the patch came out. People played ddrsn for about a week more, and then realized "oh they just synced a few songs...fascination eternal what? w/e, peace out".
aside from the ludicrous challenge charts for the 10's, DDRsn is still just DDR. They put a lot of new songs on from IIDX and other bemani games, but the most of the charts for them sucked. People were so excited for murmur twins and red zone, but then they realized how poopy charts can ruin a song. Nothing outstandingly new was really incorporated into the game.
people who have the option to hack their dedicab will hack their dedicab, giving them unlimited access to the 20+gb free space on the hda5 partition, so they can have tons of songs and marathons to their liking. people who have uptight arcade managers (who won't let them hack) can use r21 as a poor-man's itg hacked cab. yea, no sample sound, banner, or bg. in game, you'll probably be paying attention to the arrows rather than the background which is only visible for about 5 seconds before and after the song.
ddrsn's popularity isn't really rising much more. it's already starting to die. but look at how popular itg has become. weird
I think it's great though that all of us itg players (and some non itg players) are trying to argue over speculations and opinions on ddrfreak, home of ddr fanboys and japanophiles alike.
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werd |
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pags
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Joined: 17 Jul 2004
Location: Pgh |
| 228. Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Wolfman Jake wrote: | | SuperNOVA DOES feature individual score tracking, just not in the US (or Europe). |
Look at all the people flying over to japan to make good use of the individual score tracking!!
oh.
oops!
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werd |
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Char
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Joined: 30 Apr 2004
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| 229. Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Wolfman Jake wrote: | | It's not that hard |
The many, many, many people I've had to explain the technique to disagree with you.
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| AJ 187 wrote: | | If your dance game makes Arch0wl and jsb quit, SOMETHING IS WRONG |
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Wolfman Jake
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| 230. Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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| toady007 wrote: | | Wolfman Jake wrote: | | Also, all of your "interface" blathering and synching woes were addressed with the update to SN. If you knew what you were talking about at all, people might be more inclined to take your opinions seriously. |
I like what you did there, you picked one thing out of like twenty he listed that you found incorrect, and then called the rest of it blather and didn't bother to refute it.
Next time you post I think I'm going to just say "Oh yeah, well wolfmen don't really exist!" and ignore your argument. |
He didn't list 20 things. Hyperbole makes a "donkey" of you and...just you, really. I addressed the two most vocal complaints about SuperNOVA, where as most of the rest are simple matters of TASTE (i.e.: steps, music selection, tempo features, etc.). Why not go back to trying to bait everyone with your super secret inside knowledge about why RedOctane/Activtion will win their lawsuit? You're much more entertaining that way.
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Wolfman Jake
Last edited by Wolfman Jake on Thu Oct 19, 2006 4:50 pm, edited 1 time in total |
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Emptyeye
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Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Location: Waterbury, CT |
| 231. Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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| toady007 wrote: | | Wolfman Jake wrote: | | Also, all of your "interface" blathering and synching woes were addressed with the update to SN. If you knew what you were talking about at all, people might be more inclined to take your opinions seriously. |
I like what you did there, you picked one thing out of like twenty he listed that you found incorrect, and then called the rest of it blather and didn't bother to refute it. |
It was actually two things.
Just saying.
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pags
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Joined: 17 Jul 2004
Location: Pgh |
| 232. Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Wolfman Jake wrote: | | Hyperbole makes a "donkey" of you |
atleast he doesn't think he's a "wolf"
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werd |
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toady007
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Joined: 22 Nov 2002
Location: Mountain View, CA |
| 233. Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Wolfman Jake wrote: | | rawr rawr i'm a wolfmaaaaaaannnn |
But wolfmen don't exist!
| Emptyeye wrote: | It was actually two things.
Just saying. |
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Marq(uistadorous)
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Joined: 03 Aug 2005
Location: Arvada, CO |
| 234. Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Cutriss wrote: | | Marquistadorous wrote: | | AA Bob wrote: | | Cutriss wrote: | | Stepmania's engine sucks. |
Why? I don't know a ton about SM, but ITG seems to have been fairly successful with it. If DDR used Stepmania, we'd finally get real triplets. |
I agree. I really like stepmania's engine. It way nicer than ddr's in my opinion. |
Thanks for just skipping over the post where I cited my technical concerns with the Stepmania engine. Describing it as "nice" somewhat indicates that you don't really know what it is I'm talking about. |
I read it, I just simply like the itg engine better. I can deal with the loading times and all the other stuff. I know it's not perfect, I just like it 
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Wolfman Jake
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| 235. Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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| pags wrote: | | Wolfman Jake wrote: | | Hyperbole makes a "donkey" of you |
atleast he doesn't think he's a "wolf" |
It's a nickname. If you can't fathom that, you're a bigger We Todd than I ever thought.
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Wolfman Jake |
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pags
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Joined: 17 Jul 2004
Location: Pgh |
| 236. Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Wolfman Jake wrote: | | pags wrote: | | Wolfman Jake wrote: | | Hyperbole makes a "donkey" of you |
atleast he doesn't think he's a "wolf" |
It's a nickname. If you can't fathom that, you're a bigger We Todd than I ever thought. |
Are you sure it was a nickname, Peter?
Are you sure it wasn't...nothing?
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werd |
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Loogaroo
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Joined: 06 Feb 2002
Location: Glendale, CA |
| 237. Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Wolfman Jake wrote: | | The "Easy/Medium/Difficult" (there's no difficulty sort called "Expert") categories are there to provide a default song list, catered to the indicated difficulty level, that is about a third as large as the total song list when "All Music" is displayed. This helps novice players more quickly find songs, instead of scrolling through 300 song every time. You don't like this? Select "All Music." It's not that hard, and it's mechanically no different that moving the cursor from Beginner to Heavy on EXTREME. |
But why is an "All Music" option even necessary? Why can't someone choose Easy/Medium/Difficult and then pick from all of the songs, rather than be stuck with the songs Konami thinks are suitable for them? Every song has at least three stepcharts, right? So why not just make all the songs available all the time rather than hide that option behind three difficulty levels?
They did this on 4th Mix, and I hated it then too.
| Quote: | | You probably don't even know this, but DDR EXTREME AC didn't show you all the available songs on default sort, ever. You had to choose another sorting option like ABC or Series Sort (which can't be used now that SN is an international release) to see all the songs available. |
That's a completely different story, though. Extreme showed you all of the new songs (and a handful of the songs they brought back from previous mixes) on the opening songlist, because those were the songs they wanted to feature first. If you didn't want to play one of those songs, all you had to do was just hold left & right on the cabinet and all the songs were available again.
SuperNova doesn't do that. You unwittingly pick a difficulty level (as I did the first time I played), look for a song, and it's not there. You go to alphabet sort, and it's still not there. It's not there for choosing on your first, second, third, or even Extra stage. If you want to play it, then you're going to have to pony up another credit.
| Quote: | | Also, the SuperNOVA machine records your score, IF you're top dog. |
I think I can fairly confidently say that I'm not going to be the top dog at any song. So should that disqualify me from being able to have a personal record of my scores? I'd like to see how I'm improving on various songs and determing which songs I should practice more just like anyone else. And for what it's worth, that sort of record is less of a stat-keeping feature as it is simply a high-score award for each song.
| Quote: | | SuperNOVA DOES feature individual score tracking, just not in the US (or Europe). |
I'll keep that in mind when I move to Japan.
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Wolfman Jake
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| 238. Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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| GG EA wrote: | | Wolfman Jake wrote: | | The "Easy/Medium/Difficult" (there's no difficulty sort called "Expert") categories are there to provide a default song list, catered to the indicated difficulty level, that is about a third as large as the total song list when "All Music" is displayed. This helps novice players more quickly find songs, instead of scrolling through 300 song every time. You don't like this? Select "All Music." It's not that hard, and it's mechanically no different that moving the cursor from Beginner to Heavy on EXTREME. |
But why is an "All Music" option even necessary? |
I told you why. Read again.
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skillz187
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| 239. Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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i dont know why everyone's getting so worked up for. they're just games. the reason you play a game is to have fun. and if they're not gonna produce another itg, fine. if you really pledged your alliegance to itg that much and dont wanna play ddr, then hey, theres a bunch of other games out there for you to play. no one put a gun to your head and said "play itg or ddr, or i'll kill you". and as far as score tracking, if you really care that much about your score that you have to go and show everyone, do what everyone did in the extreme days; take a picture.
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