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eaglefan101
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180.  Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 9:28 am Post subject: |
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If Konami DOES continue to make ITG... I wonder if they will still use Stepmania...
Either way, this really sucks.
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Kyrandian
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Joined: 24 Mar 2002
Location: Portland, OR |
| 181. Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 9:38 am Post subject: |
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| Thomas Hobbes wrote: | I'm a fan of both DDR and ITG, yet I think Konami's win for this is cool. 
I don't mind if ITG is going to be shut down and its code destroyed, as I recall that's what part of their lawsuit's "demands," if you can call them that, was.
I'm just happy that Konami won. Justice was served, as I believed that they would win in the first place and that they were right. This settlement is cool though, as Konami gets to own what's rightfully theirs, the intellectual right to dancing games using arrows like DDR and ITG.
Plus, Supernova is cool. |
Ignoring the legal battle and serving of justice entirely, can you honestly say, as an ITG fan, that you'll be happy if ITG3 isn't released? |
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Cutriss
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Joined: 24 Jan 2002
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| 182. Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 9:58 am Post subject: |
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| piemaster wrote: | | I wonder if they will still use Stepmania... |
I hope not. Stepmania's engine sucks.
Not that Konami's is any better. Both have real technical problems.
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MazriM TaiM
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Joined: 24 Jul 2002
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada |
| 183. Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 10:18 am Post subject: |
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It'd be quite open to...adjustments though, if you know what I mean. 
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AA Bob
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Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Alllll right! |
| 184. Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 10:35 am Post subject: |
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| Cutriss wrote: | | Stepmania's engine sucks. |
Why? I don't know a ton about SM, but ITG seems to have been fairly successful with it. If DDR used Stepmania, we'd finally get real triplets.
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| Emptyeye wrote: | | So um, is it bad that awhile ago I was watching Family Guy, and when Quagmire came on, I thought something to the effect of "Whoa, It's AA Bob!" (I don't remember if the exact thought was "It's AA Bob" or "It's AA Bob's avatar", but I don't think it matters in this case)? |
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toady007
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Joined: 22 Nov 2002
Location: Mountain View, CA |
| 185. Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 10:36 am Post subject: |
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Seriously though, does somebody want to explain to me why Konami would produce another arcade mix of either game period?
As soon as the rest of the simfiles for ITG3 are leaked, and as soon as we have our hands on another DDR arcade mix, those files are going to be ripped to USB and played on an R21 cabinent. Arcade owners are going to be pressured by their players to keep the patch as you can play everything on it. So again, why would Konami produce an arcade mix when one already exists with the capability to play anything? Is an interface or some new oni courses worth the cost of a new cabinet? Yeah right.
Konami makes money off of its home versions. ITG doesn't sell well at home. The hardcore ITG fanbase that supports it in the arcade wouldn't want to upgrade from R21 because you can put all of ITG3 and Supernova and dozens of other songs on a memory stick. Nobody really plays Supernova AC. So why does everyone keep seriously expecting another arcade mix that isn't a complete joke?
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Synaesthesia
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Joined: 03 Apr 2005
Location: Crushing all deceivers, smashing non-believers |
| 186. Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 10:44 am Post subject: |
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The thing about the Compaq - HP analogy is that you're dealing with things that were FAR more popular and widespread than DDR and ITG. I admit that I do not know the conditions of HP acquiring Compaq, but I'm inclined to think it was more of like a nice business merger-ish thing, where both parties involved were happy and rainbows and sunshine. I have a couple ideas of what might happen with this whole thing, but there's no point in offering speculation less than like TWO DAYS after the news first hits.
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Maxx!
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Joined: 02 Mar 2003
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| 187. Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 11:14 am Post subject: |
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| toady007 wrote: | | Nobody really plays Supernova AC. |
uh
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Reenee
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| 188. Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 11:23 am Post subject: |
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| toady007 wrote: | Seriously though, does somebody want to explain to me why Konami would produce another arcade mix of either game period?
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Thank you. I don't want to hear Konami saying they'll make another one. I want Konami to say "we're going/continuing to make a series of them". While I am fine with home versions, I am of the skeptical people who is convinced that SuperNOVA is a rush-job. |
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Cutriss
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Joined: 24 Jan 2002
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| 189. Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 11:23 am Post subject: |
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| AA Bob wrote: | | Cutriss wrote: | | Stepmania's engine sucks. |
Why? I don't know a ton about SM, but ITG seems to have been fairly successful with it. If DDR used Stepmania, we'd finally get real triplets. |
For one thing, it's a huge performance hog and is very much hindered by its legacy roots. It had to be drastically retuned just to run on the PS2, and it's still not perfect there - experience what happens when you select a moderate number of modifiers. Also see the load time. Also, the engine appears to be unable to accomodate a few more songs than what it comes shipped with.
It generally runs pretty well on most people's computers, but most people's gaming computers are >2 GHz these days, and it's pretty amazing that it needs that much oomph to run. Basically, it needs to be rewritten from the ground up in order to run more efficiently, but there's little point in doing so when most target platforms can run it well enough now.
I have a couple of other small quibbles with the software but I can't really remember much of it at the moment.
Now, I'm not totally bagging on Stepmania either - I love all the custom modifiers and whatnot and I really hope that DDR incorporates more of them. I acknowledge that the granularity of the Stepmania engine allows for much more accurate timing than DDR. That's one of the reasons DDR's engine sucks. The biggest one, frankly. | Synaesthesia wrote: | | I admit that I do not know the conditions of HP acquiring Compaq, but I'm inclined to think it was more of like a nice business merger-ish thing, where both parties involved were happy and rainbows and sunshine. |
Well, with HP and Compaq, there weren't nearly as many rainbows and as much sunshine as you'd believe. The original founders' of HP's families were both against the merger, and following the merger, most of HP's well-known business divisions have either been drastically cut back or sacked. HP's printing business has been in decline for some time, but the business desktops, servers, and scientific equipment divisions were still holding strong until Carly Fiona came in to run things into the ground.
Basically, the result of that merger was that, given any department common between the two companies, the lesser would prevail and the more successful shut down. | Maxx! wrote: | | toady007 wrote: | | Nobody really plays Supernova AC. |
uh |
Exactly. That is a very, very shortsighted view.
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Mr. A
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Joined: 20 Oct 2003
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| 190. Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 11:41 am Post subject: |
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| _Icefox_ wrote: |
People complain that ITG has horrible music that does nothing but serve the purpose of creating potential for bullshit hard stepcharts, but at the same time, I don't think anyone would argue against the point that Max 300 did the same damn thing. Those 92 seconds of "music" are anything but; Max 300 was nothing but a medium for Konami to produce a crazy hard chart that would change the dynamics of the game forever. To this day, 10's and 10+'s are considered a wholly different entity from normal play. Konami did it with Max 300 and Paranoia Survivor Max, why should we villianize r0x0r for doing it with Pandemonium and Vertex^2?
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IIRC Max 300 was on IIDX before DDR. |
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Odyssey
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Joined: 09 Sep 2005
Location: 2003, apparently |
| 191. Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 11:44 am Post subject: |
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Wow. Been a while since I posted in DDRFreak...
...actually, I think this is a fair thing for both ends. Both companies save face, and the games continue to live on, at least, to some extent. Had the two gone to legal war, one of the companies would've looked AWFUL. Remember, both of the game makers have a large, energetic fanbase, and if one lost, there'd be havoc for their fans. True, Roxor might have taken a small blow, but it's FAR bigger than what could have happened.
Of course, this now opens up the possibility for more song organization... say, more "American-Friendly" songs in ITG, and more Japanese-and-the-like songs on DDR again... (BRING BACK THE EUROBEAT PLZKTHX)
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Wolfman Jake
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Joined: 13 Sep 2002
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| 192. Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 11:52 am Post subject: |
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| Mr. A wrote: | | IIRC Max 300 was on IIDX before DDR. |
You recall incorrectly. MAX 300 made its DDR debute on MAX (6th Mix), which predates its IIDX debute on 7th style. Want further proof? Kakumei is also on IIDX 7th style (as the One More Extra Stage), but it debuted simultaneously on DDR MAX 2 (7th Mix).
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Johnny Rainbow
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Joined: 24 Jan 2002
Location: Fukuoka, Japan |
| 193. Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 11:56 am Post subject: |
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| Mr. A wrote: | | IIRC Max 300 was on IIDX before DDR. |
..wait, what? Max300's first IIDX appearance was on 7th Style, which was released 2002. Its first DDR appearance was on DDRMAX, which was released 2001.
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Loogaroo
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Joined: 06 Feb 2002
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| 194. Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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There is one positive thing that may come out of this for ITG fans: Konami may decide that now that they have the rights to ITG, they may use RoxoR as their American arm when future dance games are released. I obviously can't speak for the rest of the posters here, but I personally felt that SuperNova, while a fine game to entice 12-year-old girls to go smashy smashy, is a terrible game for seasoned players. The interface is horrible, they still use the archaic scoring method they've used the first mix, and of course, many songs are offsync, some to the point of being unplayable (Murmur Twins anyone?).
It's pretty clear that RoxoR, love them or hate them, are aware of the current issues and desires of the American dance game market. ITG1 and 2 were both made with a lot of player input and feedback, so the folks at RoxoR know what dance game players want. Betson, on the other hand, has shown an utter apathy when it comes to player concerns. (The syncing issue was brought up by just about everyone during the beta testing; the final release comes out six months later, and all the syncing issues were still there.) With the acquisition of ITG, Konami now has access to a group of programmers who know what today's dance game players want; hopefully Konami will recognize this fact and use RoxoR as their distributor for future DDR/ITG games.
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toady007
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Joined: 22 Nov 2002
Location: Mountain View, CA |
| 195. Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Cutriss wrote: | | Exactly. That is a very, very shortsighted view. |
So Cutriss, please enlighten me as to why my point is flawed as a whole instead of selectively highlighting one sentence I used, which neither of us can prove short of getting income figures from every arcade in the country. I can say that in California, Supernova AC is a joke to the majority of the population compared to ITG2 or even Extreme. If you want me to go into detail I will, and it will be lengthy. Obviously I don't have personal observable experience of the game in every state, but I don't think it's naive to assume that it's the same way.
Now say theoretically that Supernova AC has tons of people playing it all the time, which is a pretty damn big theoretical. Konami decides to make a new arcade mix. Konami suddenly realizes that the songs are going to be ripped and played on an R21 cabinet which will effectively destroy their sales figures. It's not like arcade owners are dumb, they are going ask regular players what they want, and those players are going to tell them to keep the R21 revision. Konami isn't stupid, they already know this. So again, somebody tell me why Konami would release another mix of either game in the arcade when their strong point is their home version sales at this point to begin with?
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cfusionpm
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Joined: 24 Jan 2002
Location: San Diego, CA |
| 196. Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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| toady007 wrote: | | Konami makes money off of its home versions. ITG doesn't sell well at home. The hardcore ITG fanbase that supports it in the arcade wouldn't want to upgrade from R21 because you can put all of ITG3 and Supernova and dozens of other songs on a memory stick. Nobody really plays Supernova AC. So why does everyone keep seriously expecting another arcade mix that isn't a complete joke? |
the hardcore itg players also do not in any way make up a majority of dance game players (i'd rougly estimate <1% in the US). those who would go through the time and effort to make or put songs on a flash drive; even less. i think your perspective is skewed a bit.
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cheesecake
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Joined: 19 Nov 2004
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| 197. Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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| cfusionpm wrote: |
the hardcore itg players also do not in any way make up a majority of dance game players (i'd rougly estimate <1% in the US). those who would go through the time and effort to make or put songs on a flash drive; even less. i think your perspective is skewed a bit. |
Exactly!!
Plus, R21 isn't as perfect as people say it is. My arcade doesn't have it installed, but i've heard of the NoName glitch and it is still there. Plus, no bgs, banners, etc.
Also, If you want to show off your AAA's or new records on the intarwebs, getting a *** on them on in the groove isn't the same as actually AAA'ing them on an OFFICIAL konami dance arcade machine. No matter what you say, some people would argue against you as having a legit AAA. Heck, a **** might not even be considered an AAA in some people's eyes because they might say "Oh that's not ddr, that's itg so it doesn't count."
Same goes for in the groove, but in a different sort of sense. Uploading all of your leaked itg3 songs and stepfiles is all good. When you get down to it though, if itg3 was actually out, you could upload that score on groovestats or show it to a friend and they would actually care. You could get the first **** and get #1 on groovestats and your machine records. If you just played it on r21 and got a **** nobody would really care
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Yarni
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Joined: 27 Feb 2005
Location: Chicopee, MA |
| 198. Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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| toady007 wrote: |
As soon as the rest of the simfiles for ITG3 are leaked, and as soon as we have our hands on another DDR arcade mix, those files are going to be ripped to USB and played on an R21 cabinent. Arcade owners are going to be pressured by their players to keep the patch as you can play everything on it. So again, why would Konami produce an arcade mix when one already exists with the capability to play anything? Is an interface or some new oni courses worth the cost of a new cabinet? Yeah right. |
Wow... Nearly everything in this entire thread seems pointless once you read this... That's a better point than I could have made trying my hardest. I had completely forgotten about that. Would Konami or someone be able to sue arcades for having such a hacked machine? Is that even within their power? Anyone want to talk about this stuff? |
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Mit Man
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Joined: 10 Jul 2003
Location: Westland, Michigan |
| 199. Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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I really don't get why so many people believe this doesn't put a nail in ITG's coffin O_o Why would Konami possibly continue the ITG series with any kind of arcade or PS2 release? Even if it made them some money, it would be competing with their own DDR series, which does not make much sense. I'm pretty sure they're going to use this ability to end the ITG series, and keep DDR as the primary dance game on the market (that uses up, down, left, and right arrows, excluding PIU which they apparently can't touch.)
Also, I can see them going so far as to trying to get ITG cabinets out of arcades (perhaps refunding arcade owners or something), seeing as how the arcade cabinets were the thing that originally made them spark up this whole lawsuit.
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