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Cutriss
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160.  Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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E.C.'s a pretty mellow guy, Wolfman. Don't hold the impression that he's arguing with you - it's just a friendly debate.
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Wolfman Jake
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Joined: 13 Sep 2002
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| 161. Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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That may be, but tempers seem too be wearing a bit thin recently (I'm not excluding myself either).
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IHYD.Tiza
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Joined: 26 Jun 2005
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| 162. Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Wolfman Jake wrote: | | That may be, but tempers seem too be wearing a bit thin recently (I'm not excluding myself either). |
Agreed, and most likely because of the instant fanboyism that erupts as a result of something like this. The battle lines are drawn, and people either have to jump on a side or get pulled onto one or get the heck outta the way. You really can't weigh in on something like this without choosing a side, even if it is like I did and say "I'd like it better if these guys win, even though I don't really know who's legally right."
It seems like most of DDRFreak's smartest and most opinionated people are showing up for this one, and unfortunately there's more of the latter than the former. But still, that's why we have mods and smarter people to keep them at bay, right? |
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spartan118
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Joined: 20 Nov 2004
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| 163. Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 7:13 am Post subject: |
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| Wolfman Jake wrote: | [], if you want to believe that I've resorted to name-calling, then go ahead. I've already stated it's far from the case in my response to Tiza. Though, if you want to get snippy, your "pot calling the kettle black" would be considered a type of logical fallacy called "ad hominem." Since that's NOT what I want going on, lets set that aside now.
For whatever reason, you seem to be unwilling or unable to see where the dance game genre, and espeicially when we are talking about DDR's specific gameplay mechanics which Roxor cloned to make ITG, is a much more special case than most other videogame genres, and a comparison between it and most anything else out there in terms of public awareness is terribly sloppy. Puzzle games? If you can't tell Tetris apart from anything else in the genre, that's SAD. About the only thing most puzzle games have in common is match and eliminate pieces routine. Only Tetris gives you the trademark tetrids and makes you eliminate a complete horizontal line of blocks. No one is going to mistake it for Puyo Puyo, or Columns, or Dr. Mario, etc. The problem with shooters and fighters? No appeal to the outsiders. If you play those games, you KNOW what the differences are. Otherwise, you don't play the games, and it doesn't matter. In otherwords, they are genres that preach to the choir; they are FOR videogamers and not parents, outsiders, non-gamers, etc. DDR has brought something unique to the public, a game that promotes exercise (or at least the first one to become a cult success). It's a game that many people outside the videogame community have now become aware of and quite interested in, and the "DDR" name is in their heads (to Konami's delight), but the name is obviously generic to them, since we already KNOW people are confusing DDR and ITG. It's like calling a copy machine a "Xerox," or a facial tissue a "Cleanex." They are using the brand name but do not necessarily associate it with brand loyalty. These people are likely to pick up anything that LOOKS like DDR and probably not even know it's NOT specifically DDR. Roxor is pretty damned well aware of ALL of this, I can assure you, which is why they figured they could take a chunk out of DDR's pie. The success of ITG does not depend on the approval of the hardcore players who have been playing DDR for years. It depends on basically "confusing" casual players into thinking it's the same thing, so why not? If Roxor wins this case, they'll probably get that chance. But, it will open a Pandora's box of other clones, which will try to do the exact same thing Roxor is, and what is actually going to distinguish ITG from anything else? Expert? Casucal gamers couldn't care less. They'll pick up whatever has some songs they recognize or like, or who has the prettier box, or the cheaper price, or whatever the salesperson (in the hopes of getting rid of a stock of games that aren't moving) tells them, or maybe just the first one they find. Yeah, people use heuristics that are THAT poor when making purchasing choices. If you would please take a few moments to mull this over, [], and realize that this isn't about intellectual dickswing getting, you'll see I have a very strong point, which I try to back up with some thoughtful analysis. |
RoXoR's stated intention was to make a game "by dancing game players, for dancing game players." That doesn't change the fact, though, that RoXoR DID manage to confuse casual people by not making their intention publicly aware. Neither does it alter the fact that unless Konami's patents are proven invalid, RoXoR is going to have an extremely difficult time in court.
You know what this reminds me of? "Halloween." Remember that Michael Myers' mask was a spray-painted Captain Kirk mask. I'm not sure if this exactly parallels K vs. R, but it was just interesting to point out. |
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Be_Without_You
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Joined: 23 Feb 2006
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| 164. Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Konami is Innocent and Explain yourself Guys |
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Thomas Hobbes
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Joined: 20 Aug 2002
Location: San Francisco // NorCal |
| 165. Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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Konami's guilt or innocence was never drawn into question. They are merely the plantiffs in the case.
This case isn't a criminal preceding where there is a defendant against a prosecutor or a district attorney.
RoXoR's guilt and ignorance of Konami's patents and rights that they have is a different story though.
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Tyrgannus
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Joined: 19 Oct 2005
Location: Not about to tell |
| 166. Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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It's stuff like this that makes me mad.
If I'm robbing from someone and chip my tooth, I shouldn't be able to sue the property owner's of the house I'm robbing.......but in this country I can.
If I put hot coffee from McDonald's in my lap while driving and it spills, I shouldn't be able to sue McDonald's for not tellng me the coffee is hot (which is obvious).......but in this country I can.
If I decide to build a playground, I should be able to install a swingset without worrying about ridiculous liability costs from stupid kids that misuse it anyway,.........but in this country I can't.
Konami v. RoXoR seems to fit in this categories of STUPIDITY. Why don't we just sue the Monkees for copying the Beatles? Why don't we sue Hendrix for playing the Star Spangled Banner? Yes, I know that there are legal reasons you can give me, but I'm arguing beyond those legal loopholes and into the realm of common sense. If a company makes a certain genre of game, why are there so many legal hoops to jump through to make a similar game without being sued? Should we sue Resident Evil because Doom came first? No! What we should do is encourage competition in the genre as opposed to encouraging monolopies of an idea.
...those are my two cents.
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Thomas Hobbes
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Joined: 20 Aug 2002
Location: San Francisco // NorCal |
| 167. Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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/me slaps your two pennies onto the floor.
Sure the examples you cite are pure stupidity and I think that they are pointless and dumb too. Yet, Konami does own rights and hold patents onto this genre of games. RoXoR knew this, as many have said because "they are fans" and are "gamers themselves."
Ignorance is no excuse. You may argue that in America it may be but there are quite a lot of intelligent people out here. Contrary to what many in the world believe, Americans are not all stupid.
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Synaesthesia
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Joined: 03 Apr 2005
Location: Crushing all deceivers, smashing non-believers |
| 168. Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Be_Without_You wrote: | | Konami is Innocent and Explain yourself Guys |
People who are unintelligent should not be posting or bumping old threads.
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NinjaDux
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Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Location: Fo Co |
| 169. Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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Holy Crap man. you are on a roll for bumping the most unimportant threads in the world tonight. Someone should remove your post reply button
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Tyrgannus
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Joined: 19 Oct 2005
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| 170. Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:30 am Post subject: |
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| Tyrgannus wrote: | | Yes, I know that there are legal reasons you can give me, but I'm arguing beyond those legal loopholes and into the realm of common sense. If a company makes a certain genre of game, why are there so many legal hoops to jump through to make a similar game without being sued? |
Malice, I'm not arguing that it's not legally sound, I'm arguing about the validity of our law system itself. In other words, "Yes, I know that there are legal reasons you can give me".
Also if you read, I'm asking why the legal loopholes, like patents, exist. Patents encourage monopolies really.....
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| AA Bob wrote: | | Summer is as much of a 12 as PSMO is a 9. |
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Thomas Hobbes
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Joined: 20 Aug 2002
Location: San Francisco // NorCal |
| 171. Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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Patents protect your right to your property.
If I were to invent some super cool awesome new piece of technology, I'd apply for a patent to protect myself and my rights. I don't want someone else to take my invention or to claim it because you certainly would not like if someone took what was yours. You would not like it even moreso if they attempted to take credit for them too.
Patents protect your right to your property, as it proves that you are its rightful owner, creator, and proprietor.
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Travelsonic
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Joined: 08 Oct 2005
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| 172. Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Wolfman Jake wrote: |
Or it will allow everyone to simply throw whatever DDR clone they want on the market (MC GROOVZ dance CRAZE).... |
OK maybe there should be some limits to maintain quality, but not so much so that creating competition becomes infeasible, or impossible. 
I wonder, has anybody else heard of the game "PowerPad Dance Aerobics"? This was a late 1980s Nintendo game that I would find interesting if RoXor used to invalidate gameplay patents. Sure it is unlikely, I know (don't flame ) but I think there are similarities, mainly follow arrows and step to music (DDR) VS following "instructor" and stepping to music (PPDA), the score being based on accuracy of steps, and using gaming pad to play. Again, I am sure this might not work, though I am by no means a lawyer or interested in legal matters on that note, but it would make for a nice WTF moment if this showed up.
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DDRNemesis
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Joined: 10 Jun 2004
Location: Bryan, OH |
| 173. Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Travelsonic wrote: | OK maybe there should be some limits to maintain quality, but not so much so that creating competition becomes infeasible, or impossible.
I wonder, has anybody else heard of the game "PowerPad Dance Aerobics"? This was a late 1980s Nintendo game that I would find interesting if RoXor used to invalidate gameplay patents. Sure it is unlikely, I know (don't flame ) but I think there are similarities, mainly follow arrows and step to music (DDR) VS following "instructor" and stepping to music (PPDA), the score being based on accuracy of steps, and using gaming pad to play. Again, I am sure this might not work, though I am by no means a lawyer or interested in legal matters on that note, but it would make for a nice WTF moment if this showed up. |
Did Nintendo patent it though??
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Travelsonic
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Joined: 08 Oct 2005
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| 174. Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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| DDRNemesis wrote: | | Travelsonic wrote: | OK maybe there should be some limits to maintain quality, but not so much so that creating competition becomes infeasible, or impossible.
I wonder, has anybody else heard of the game "PowerPad Dance Aerobics"? This was a late 1980s Nintendo game that I would find interesting if RoXor used to invalidate gameplay patents. Sure it is unlikely, I know (don't flame ) but I think there are similarities, mainly follow arrows and step to music (DDR) VS following "instructor" and stepping to music (PPDA), the score being based on accuracy of steps, and using gaming pad to play. Again, I am sure this might not work, though I am by no means a lawyer or interested in legal matters on that note, but it would make for a nice WTF moment if this showed up. |
Did Nintendo patent it though?? |
Doubt it, if they patented it, or the PowePad it most likely would have expired by now anyways. 
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KingofLight06
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Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Location: Syracuse, NY & Rochester, NY |
| 175. Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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Here's my two cents
You can patent the hardware for a product, but you can't patent a concept.
Example: The Wright brothers tried to patent the concept of flying. We all know that this is quite impossible. While this was happening, someone else patented the hardware used to make a plane. Now this can be done. Someone made a mistake 
In other words, you can't patent the concept of someone dancing and hitting steps to a song along with music, but you can patent the cabinet that it's being done on. |
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Thomas Hobbes
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Joined: 20 Aug 2002
Location: San Francisco // NorCal |
| 176. Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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Explain to me why Konami Computer Entertainment then owns the patent. -_-
They're not owning the patent of music or dancing. They own the patent for a type of game where there are notes to music that the player registers and is rated by the game due to how on or offbeat the registration was.
That's pretty specific and is a concept that is valid and has been found valid and specific enough to be awarded a patent.
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Synaesthesia
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Joined: 03 Apr 2005
Location: Crushing all deceivers, smashing non-believers |
| 177. Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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Patents are awarded all the time, and are also invalidated all the time. There's no reason to keep continuing this debate--there's been no new information germane to the case, so I severely doubt any more speculation will be different than what's already been hashed about.
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KingofLight06
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Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Location: Syracuse, NY & Rochester, NY |
| 178. Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Malice of BluR wrote: |
They're not owning the patent of music or dancing. They own the patent for a type of game where there are notes to music that the player registers and is rated by the game due to how on or offbeat the registration was.
That's pretty specific and is a concept that is valid and has been found valid and specific enough to be awarded a patent. |
I guess.............................There's no sense in arguing about the legal aspects, because it's obvious that Konami has every right to do this.
But here's the intention........Konami wants all the money they can get |
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Thomas Hobbes
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Location: San Francisco // NorCal |
| 179. Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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Duh, that's what corporations and businesses do: they make money. -_-
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