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Danceatron
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Melvis at the Disco!
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Joined: 17 Jan 2002
Location: Mountain View, CA |
1201.  Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 12:26 am Post subject: |
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| Danceatron wrote: | | Jing wrote: | | Danceatron wrote: | | Routines are always better on doubles |
Not true. |
Care to back up this bold statement?
Doubles allows you more freedom and more space and that means more dynamic routines. There are some very great moves that you simply can't incorporate into a singles routine (at least not without a large gap in arrows, anyway.) Sure, it's possible to pull off a great routine on singles, but the potential for a doubles routine is higher than the potential for a singles routine. |
Both have different high potential. One isn't better than the other. But what would an FSer like him or me know...?
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Danceatron
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MaskedFalcon
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| 1203. Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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meh.
i just want to see a-jay's mobo moga.
in fact, i want to see every freestyle ever 
(btw captaincanada, i was reading your top 50 freestyles topic from a while back, would you mind if i bump it?) |
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Jing
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Joined: 24 Jan 2002
Location: Underneath the Soul Train stage. OW!! |
| 1204. Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 12:46 am Post subject: |
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This is how I think. If I see a good doubles routine, I can think of a singles routine to beat it, and vice versa.
I look at it from a purely dancing standpoint. It's not about how much space you cover, it's what you do in the space you use. And it's not about the difficulty, it's about the freestyle. For instance, I can come up with a locking routine in which its effect is best given off when it's done in one spot. The same holds true whether it's done on a dance floor or on a ddr pad.
"It's not the size of the boat...it's the motion in the ocean."
"Size matters not."
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Danceatron
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Jing
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Location: Underneath the Soul Train stage. OW!! |
| 1206. Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 1:39 am Post subject: |
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| Danceatron wrote: | | I guess it boils down to what your style is. |
As opposed to your first statement of routines on doubles is always better? Nice.
| Danceatron wrote: | Tell you what, I'll make you a deal:
you do your thing, and I'll do mine. |
Hey, you started it, what with the whole "A is always better than B" generalizing. That was a rather bold statement for you to make. But hey, the more you know.
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Danceatron
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| 1207. Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 2:59 am Post subject: |
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| Jing wrote: | | Danceatron wrote: | Tell you what, I'll make you a deal:
you do your thing, and I'll do mine. |
Hey, you started it, what with the whole "A is always better than B" generalizing. That was a rather bold statement for you to make. But hey, the more you know. |
So in other words, no deal.
| Jing wrote: | | Danceatron wrote: | | I guess it boils down to what your style is. |
As opposed to your first statement of routines on doubles is always better? Nice. |
Oh, don't get me wrong here. I still disagree with you. Frankly, I don't see the contradiction. Maybe you're misinterpreting, or maybe I could have worded that last post better, so I'll restate:
I think doubles routines are always a better idea than singles routines. But if you have a certain style, I'd see where you might dis-agree. Using doubles gives you more freedom of movement.
(please not that I am not saying: "every doubles routine is better than every singles routine" or anything to that effect. That would, obviously, be gross generalization.)
Another point that comes to mind:
A doubles pattern is just a singles pattern that crosses over, right? There's not much (if anything) stopping you from doing the exact same spots you'd do in single routine. Like I said, the only way singles could be interpreted as better is if you're going for a "less movement" effect, which IMHO you'd be hard pressed to make a whole routine out of without it getting a little limited.
Just out of curiosity, why is it so offensive to you that I have a differient POV? I'm just stating my opinions here. Surely you realize that concepts as relative as "better" or "more interesting" will alwas be disputed. This should go without saying. I am by no means trying to quantify what makes dancing fun to watch here. I'm not quite that arrogant.
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Atticus
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Location: *Points at map* Right there |
| 1208. Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:31 am Post subject: |
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DANCE OFF!
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Melvis at the Disco!
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| 1209. Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Danceatron wrote: | | Mel B. wrote: | | Both have different high potential. One isn't better than the other. But what would an FSer like him or me know...? |
What am I? Chopped liver? |
Compared to me? Ermm... Next question.
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(Dance Dance Revolution)'s really not attractive, and most people that do it are pudgy, fat men that don't know they're gay yet. - Brad Sherwood
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Mr. Wendell
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Location: Pittsburg, California |
| 1210. Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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I am in agreement with Mel B. and Jing. It's not about the step patterns of singles or doubles, it's about what you are able to do given the limitations of the step patterns.
Sadly (IMHumbleO), I know of one really good routine done on single that beats out many double routines...
Speaking of which, I think we need to revise it a bit, Mel...
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Melvis at the Disco!
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| 1211. Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Mr. Wendell wrote: | | Speaking of which, I think we need to revise it a bit, Mel... |
Oh, most definitely. We've got a bit of time just yet to put everything in rock-solid form. I'll PM you the goods tonight.
Wanna work more on it @ Metreon during PA?
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(Dance Dance Revolution)'s really not attractive, and most people that do it are pudgy, fat men that don't know they're gay yet. - Brad Sherwood
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MaskedFalcon
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Joined: 16 Oct 2005
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| 1212. Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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you guys are lucky to have a freestyling community, however "dead" it is. chi-town doesn't have any freestylers period  |
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Jing
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Joined: 24 Jan 2002
Location: Underneath the Soul Train stage. OW!! |
| 1213. Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Danceatron wrote: | Another point that comes to mind:
A doubles pattern is just a singles pattern that crosses over, right? There's not much (if anything) stopping you from doing the exact same spots you'd do in single routine. Like I said, the only way singles could be interpreted as better is if you're going for a "less movement" effect, which IMHO you'd be hard pressed to make a whole routine out of without it getting a little limited. |
You give two canvas, one twice as large as the other, to an artist and have him paint something on both. Which painting is better? You can't determine that based on size alone, if it can be determined at all.
With freestyle, it's easy enough to do a simple thought experiment. Think up a doubles routine. Now think up a singles routine to beat it. Now repeat it except vice versa.
Now if any given singles routine can be beaten by a better doubles routine and vice versa, doesn't it stand to reason that it's NOT about whether it's singles or doubles?
Besides...
| Danceatron wrote: | | Routines are always better on doubles |
| Danceatron wrote: | | I think doubles routines are always a better idea than singles routines. |
Kinda hard to misinterpret "always better." Those two words are pretty solid.
| Danceatron wrote: | | Surely you realize that concepts as relative as "better" or "more interesting" will alwas be disputed. This should go without saying. I am by no means trying to quantify what makes dancing fun to watch here. I'm not quite that arrogant. |
Define "always better."
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Captain Canada
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| 1214. Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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Here's a pattern I've started to see between the two, just my opinion though:
singles - easier for the performer to focus on technical aspects; the cleaner routines tend to be more polished than doubles [Hypnotikz - Secret Rendezvous, Tequila - Highs, BJ - A Minute, and of course Kevin Kim & marc-is-da-name]
doubles - looser, more range of motion, better opportunity for crowd control [Bruce Leroy - Mikeneko Rock/Insertion, A-Jay - On the Jazz, 8-ball - Cafe]. It's also been the choice behind some of the best comedy routines [kay0ss - Tsugaru, JTF - Wild Rush, rufio - So Deep, etc]
Me, I prefer singles routines all the way - if I can work the full range of the pad in the process, it's just a little bonus. But I'm all about clean execution when I improv, and doesn't feel as natural when I'm constantly switching pads. DDR "dance" already involves too much stepping for me to feel natural, so yeah, until I learn Wiggles' "strutting" or something, I'm gonna stay away from doubles.
It all depends on the style you want to bring to the pad. Want to resemble a k-pop/hip-hop routine? Stay singles - those routines tend to stay in a smaller area. Popping session? Easier to pull off isolations when you're not constantly moving your feet around the pad. Footwork improv? Go doubles. 4-5 well-remembered Clark Kent perfomances can't be wrong. 
| MaskedFalcon wrote: | meh.
i just want to see a-jay's mobo moga.
in fact, i want to see every freestyle ever
(btw captaincanada, i was reading your top 50 freestyles topic from a while back, would you mind if i bump it?) |
Sure thing. Now that we have youtube/google, I can start hosting those vids again. \o\
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MaskedFalcon
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| 1215. Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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though i'm not experience with freestyling myself, having watched a lot of videos, i'd say singles and doubles are about the same. most of my top favorites are doubles, but that's just coincidence (and the fact that a-jay and bruce leroy do more doubles routines ^^). also, singles routines don't need to be confined to one mat - phrek's drifting away is an obvious example, but even routines that don't exploit off-beat notes, like nugget's spin the disc, can have a lot of movement. bruce leroy's so fabulous so fierce is pretty kinetic as well. and then of course there's the ltr walk-off.
captaincanada: thanks ;D. video hosting these days is sweet. you might also want to consider filefront, which is where i put some of my ssbm videos (and where i will probably put my freestyling videos, once i get off my lazy butt and video tape my groove routine). |
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Danceatron
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| 1216. Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 12:25 am Post subject: |
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| Mel B. wrote: | | Danceatron wrote: | | What am I? Chopped liver? |
Compared to me? Ermm... Next question. |
Oh mercy, here comes the obligatory smack talking....
You don't know me, boss. I suggest you have a little more respect for the unknown.
| Jing wrote: | | Now if any given singles routine can be beaten by a better doubles routine and vice versa, doesn't it stand to reason that it's NOT about whether it's singles or doubles? |
That's flawed logic. If the singles routine is 'better' then it's irrelevant, yes. But that's an apples to oranges comparison.
| Jing wrote: | | Kinda hard to misinterpret "always better." Those two words are pretty solid. |
And yet, you manage somehow to do just that....
Hmm...
Again, "better" is a relative term. What I consider to be "better" has nothing to do with what you do.
If I consider Daft Punk to be "better" than Brittany Spears, It means nothing to the 12 year old girl who disagrees with me.
I could easily say that a Daft Punk song is always better than a Brittany spears song. Am I "right"?
Irrelevant.
"Better" is an opinion. "Always better' is still an opinion. You're trying to express an opinion (and mine at that) as an absolute, which is not possible, logically.
The qualities I value in a doubles routine are always better expressed through doubles. Therefore, in my opinion, Doubles routines are always better than singles. This is of course assuming you're talking same basic routine, same dancer same number of steps, etc... which is not going to happen.
Once again, before you assume even more from what I've said here, It's very possible for a singles routine to be better than a doubles routine, obviously. I don't deny that. But if you construct a doubles routine with the same moves, style, etc... as its singles counterpart, I will always consider the doubles routine better.
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Melvis at the Disco!
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Joined: 17 Jan 2002
Location: Mountain View, CA |
| 1217. Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Danceatron wrote: | | Mel B. wrote: | | Danceatron wrote: | | What am I? Chopped liver? |
Compared to me? Ermm... Next question. |
Oh mercy, here comes the obligatory smack talking....
You don't know me, boss. I suggest you have a little more respect for the unknown. |
Make yourself known to get some.
Can't be that hard to do, eh doubles master?
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(Dance Dance Revolution)'s really not attractive, and most people that do it are pudgy, fat men that don't know they're gay yet. - Brad Sherwood
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hattori hanzo
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Joined: 24 Jan 2002
Location: On The Navy: Underground |
| 1218. Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Danceatron wrote: | | Mel B. wrote: | | Danceatron wrote: | | What am I? Chopped liver? |
Compared to me? Ermm... Next question. |
Oh mercy, here comes the obligatory smack talking....
You don't know me, boss. I suggest you have a little more respect for the unknown.
| Jing wrote: | | Now if any given singles routine can be beaten by a better doubles routine and vice versa, doesn't it stand to reason that it's NOT about whether it's singles or doubles? |
That's flawed logic. If the singles routine is 'better' then it's irrelevant, yes. But that's an apples to oranges comparison.
| Jing wrote: | | Kinda hard to misinterpret "always better." Those two words are pretty solid. |
And yet, you manage somehow to do just that....
Hmm...
Again, "better" is a relative term. What I consider to be "better" has nothing to do with what you do.
If I consider Daft Punk to be "better" than Brittany Spears, It means nothing to the 12 year old girl who disagrees with me.
I could easily say that a Daft Punk song is always better than a Brittany spears song. Am I "right"?
Irrelevant.
"Better" is an opinion. "Always better' is still an opinion. You're trying to express an opinion (and mine at that) as an absolute, which is not possible, logically.
The qualities I value in a doubles routine are always better expressed through doubles. Therefore, in my opinion, Doubles routines are always better than singles. This is of course assuming you're talking same basic routine, same dancer same number of steps, etc... which is not going to happen.
Once again, before you assume even more from what I've said here, It's very possible for a singles routine to be better than a doubles routine, obviously. I don't deny that. But if you construct a doubles routine with the same moves, style, etc... as its singles counterpart, I will always consider the doubles routine better. |
you know, this is a familiar discussion that's rather 5 years old...what's better this or that? what's better holding the bar? or going without? well in the techincal sense, that's another discussion, as far as this is concerned. its obvious to this outsider of the situation, that you sir, aren't giving respect where respect is due. all of these people who are coming against you, defending the singles section of freestyle, have had doubles routines that looked great in one way or another. mel b, mr. wendell, capt canada, jing (even though i'm not familiar with his routines) have done the doubles thing in tournaments, if you wanna speak big about doubles and such, dig in the crates, and compare your best doubles routine to their routines.
you think respect is given just on merit and free of charge? no its not, you have to earn that ish, you have a fly routine, people will give you respect if its GOOD. its like this in any competative game, that goes the same for technical, you're only respect if you are good and the masses think you are worth that kind of word.
i'm not gonna get into this childish arguement with only opinions to work on, show us some fact, show us some video, then...and only then will this discussion close with a proper say so. then you mr. domino will be respected in this game called the dancin'
so leave your iron man lunch pail at the door, and bring your sketchers on the 8 arrows called ddr and put up or shut up.
for as to quote 4th mix, look out! its like they're gonna fight!
and for you perosnally sir, i quote 2nd mix and this post is over.
go home, you can't handle this. GAME OVER....!
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Danceatron
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| 1219. Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Mel B. wrote: | Make yourself known to get some.
Can't be that hard to do, eh doubles master? |
The only reason you've never heard of me is because I haven't made it my mission to be known outside of my local stomping grounds.
In case you haven't noticed, all you people who don't know me live on the left coast.
I live in Texas.
Anyway don't worry, I'm way ahead of you here. I'm currently embarking on a project that will (hopefully) revitalize the FS scene here in Texas. Part of said project will be publicity via internet, and if all goes well, you'll see much of my stuff.
| hattori hanzo wrote: | | its obvious to this outsider of the situation, that you sir, aren't giving respect where respect is due. all of these people who are coming against you, defending the singles section of freestyle, have had doubles routines that looked great in one way or another. |
Why is everyone taking my comments like I'm bashing singles routines?
| Earlier, I, wrote: | (please not that I am not saying: "every doubles routine is better than every singles routine" or anything to that effect. That would, obviously, be gross generalization.)
...
It's very possible for a singles routine to be better than a doubles routine, obviously. I don't deny that. |
If anything you should take my comments as complimentary to those that compose impressive singles routines. I think it's harder to make an interesting singles routine, and I admit that I've seen them done.
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