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MazriM TaiM
Trick Member
Joined: 24 Jul 2002
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada |
20.  Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Shinmizu wrote: | | Well, there was an image on page 28 of the Lethbridge thread that I took care of after seeing this thread in Site Feedback. I suppose it's possible we're talking about two different images. It was post #541. |
It's not just images I'm talking about, it's a lot of posts that have no real content (re: useless text) and can be deleted simply because they're spam. I've think I've said this more than once now in this topic.
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Spike
Administrator
Joined: 17 Jan 2002
Location: Denver |
| 21. Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Crono wrote: |
It honestly feels like you made this response without reading my case at all. I see that a number of your comments are made in complete and total ignorance of the entire case I made. If you want to take the time to actually read my post, and then post a suitable reply that acknowledges the points I made, then perhaps we can have a discussion. At this point, I feel that further discussing this topic would only lead to the equivalent of everyone talking to themselves with their ears plugged. |
I'll point out that that was a pretty bad way of telling an admin that they missed your point, and then I'll say that she didn't miss the point. You said such things like "It is simply ridiculous to try to cram the 2nd largest country in the world, all in to one forum." She pointed out that UNLESS TRAFFIC WARRANTS IT, then no it is not ridiculous.
If something is needed then we do it. If we don't do it, then we don't feel it is necessary. You may think that it is for the best. But we disagree.
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IguanaGrrl
Staff Member
Joined: 17 Jan 2002
Location: Sacramento, CA |
| 22. Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 4:57 am Post subject: |
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| [RTFAQ] SPIEK wrote: | | Crono wrote: |
It honestly feels like you made this response without reading my case at all. I see that a number of your comments are made in complete and total ignorance of the entire case I made. If you want to take the time to actually read my post, and then post a suitable reply that acknowledges the points I made, then perhaps we can have a discussion. At this point, I feel that further discussing this topic would only lead to the equivalent of everyone talking to themselves with their ears plugged. |
I'll point out that that was a pretty bad way of telling an admin that they missed your point, and then I'll say that she didn't miss the point. You said such things like "It is simply ridiculous to try to cram the 2nd largest country in the world, all in to one forum." She pointed out that UNLESS TRAFFIC WARRANTS IT, then no it is not ridiculous.
If something is needed then we do it. If we don't do it, then we don't feel it is necessary. You may think that it is for the best. But we disagree. |
Additionally, why should I address points that have already been addressed adequately by a fellow staff member? I'm not going to reiterate what has already been said.
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Crono
Trick Member
Joined: 23 Jan 2002
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada |
| 23. Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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| [RTFAQ] SPIEK wrote: | | I'll point out that that was a pretty bad way of telling an admin that they missed your point, and then I'll say that she didn't miss the point. You said such things like "It is simply ridiculous to try to cram the 2nd largest country in the world, all in to one forum." She pointed out that UNLESS TRAFFIC WARRANTS IT, then no it is not ridiculous. |
I feel that my argument was not carefully examined because it has been repeatedly pointed out that Canada does not get a lot of traffic, for instance:
| IguanaGrrl wrote: | Total machine locations in Canada as a whole - 208
Total machine locations in California, where the site started - 401
Southwest - 187
Pacific Northwest - 154
Midwest - 339
New England - 111
New York - 76
Mid-Atlantic - 220
Southeast - 238
South - 246
British Isles - 363
Down Under - 73
America Latina - 200
Are you noting a trend here? Nearly every forum, unless the traffic warrants it, runs around 200 machine locations.
The only state that has been split in half is California, which not only is where the site was originally started, it also used to have the most traffic of any area in the site, thus the NorCal/SoCal split. California warranted it.
Canada does not. |
Now, here's what I had already said before this:
| Crono wrote: | | Now I realize that we're not a big country in terms of population, and that other countries with larger populations have only one forum, however somewhere like Australia or the UK, though still very diverse, are more geographically confined spaces than Canada. I feel that it would be to our benefit to have something a little more specific than one forum for the entire country. |
Are you seeing why I am upset yet? No? Let me make things clearer.
From the outset of my argument, I accepted that Canada does not merit a split based on its number of DDR players/machine locations/people/whatever, looking at how I constructed my case, it is crystal clear that my intent was to argue for a second forum based on geography, and physical seperation. I feel that IguanaGrrl simply glanced over my case quickly, and then made a post that she felt proved me wrong, without actually recognizing that the very post she made that would seemingly disprove my case is actually something I accepted while presenting the case in the first place.
I feel that a lot of my argument for what makes Canada different, or why there is not enough traffic to merit a second forum has been ignored. It bothers me that, you, the moderators, from your somewhat detached point of view would simply shrug off (this is what I feel you're doing) the opinion of someone who knows the Canadian DDR scene, and the nature of its existance far better than you would ever bother to try to. (Point being that it's a matter of my interest in DDR in Canada which gives me more knowledge of the community, not some special God-given power)
| IguanaGrrl wrote: | | Additionally, why should I address points that have already been addressed adequately by a fellow staff member? I'm not going to reiterate what has already been said. |
What of my idea that Canadian Provinces should be grouped together with their American state counterparts? First of all, it would actually result in 1 less forum, and secondly, it would make a lot more sense in terms of geography. Additionally, I have made the point of stating, or giving the opportunity to define on your part, what the purpose of a regional forum is? As I've said, what is a regional forum, if it does not bring together people from a region in some kind of meaningful way? As I've said, I'm much more likely to meet up with someone from Seattle IRL, than someone from Ottawa, simply because of the difference in distance. Why then, am I grouped together mindlessly in a region with people thousands of miles away? These questions have not been answered, in some cases at all, or in others, with any degree of effort.
Over the last 5 years I've been an avid DDR player. In the last 3 years I've been involved in organizing some of the highest-calibre DDR tournaments in Canada, and I myself frequent most Canadian DDR forums, I've travelled halfway across the country for tournaments, you can trust me when I say that I know what I'm talking about when it comes to the reasons your Canada forum doesn't get traffic. I can point you to several forums that were created, or have been moved to because this place is simply too crowded for such a diverse place as Canada. (tgl forums, pointsixnine forums, ddrwpg, ddrcanada, geekymonsters, probably more I don't even know about - the list goes on)
In my original post, I already explained this phenomenon:
| Crono wrote: | | I found from personal experience that, whenever the Canada forum starts to pick up in popularity, it's always an unsustainable growth of sorts, because of the fact that 80% of the posts you see in the forum just aren't relevant to your region, or usually anywhere even relatively close to your region. |
I've used some arbitrary examples of why the geography/population situation of Canada makes this a unique and persistent problem that rears its head any time the Canadian forum begins to grow. I've been around here for a while, and I've seen this happen a number of times. Any thread with a hint of something regional in nature is bound to be useless to most viewers, and, furthermore, each subsequent thread bumps down the other threads for those regions, so that someone who might have noticed them from that region, won't, because it's been bumped down. So long as Canada is one forum, it will never grow into something substantial. DDRCanada was originally a domain that myself and a friend purchased. (I sold it to a friend because I wasn't in a position to be working on it at the time) This was something that I felt necessary to do at the time, because I felt that any attempt to talk to anybody here (I have tried before) is somewhat akin to banging my head against a brick wall.
I feel as though I am being treated as though you, people who probably couldn't care less about the DDR scene in this country, and probably know very little, are the experts, and I am the one being explained to why my comments have been made in ignorance. I think you can do so much as to trust that I have come forward at this time, because I have something to say which I feel needs to be heard. I have already put a great deal of time and effort into making this case. I do not feel that the attention that has been given to what I have to say is adequate, nor are the counter-arguments taking into account most of what has been said on my part.
I am told:
| [RTFAQ] SPIEK wrote: | | If something is needed then we do it. If we don't do it, then we don't feel it is necessary. You may think that it is for the best. But we disagree. |
I honestly feel that this forum has gotten far too old, comfortable and stagnant. I feel that you, as the moderating/admin team have become such as well. New ideas, unless incredibly obvious, (like the need to introduce ITG, for instance) are simply too much of a bother to pursue. I feel that my argument has been dismissed not on the basis on its merits, but on the basis of the sheer stubborness and adherence of this forum to the status quo.
I believe it has been said in several places that many of the moderators currently patrolling this forum are no longer into DDR as much as they once were, perhaps having a lot higher priorities to attend to. I believe that this attitude shows through in the way that this forum is being run. It seems as though the feeling is that if things are working half-decent, that's good enough. I don't get a feeling of excitement or passion, I don't see any desire to keep trying harder past the point where one can say 'good enough'. I don't see a desire to achieve something better, it seems as though there is simply a contentedness with things running at a mediocre level, and for anyone who tries to oppose you, their oppisition, from what I've always seen, is met with what I would almost call an elitist, sometimes even snotty attitude. Of course, this is a very general statement, and I'm not meaning to implicate all mods/admin directly, but I am simply expressing here a feeling I've often gotten here at DDRFreak. My real question is, why have moderators/admin kicking around who really aren't that much into the game anymore anyway? I apologize if these comments are being made in ingorance of the reality of your respective enthusiasm levels, but it just seems to me sometimes like the mod pool at DDRFreak does have a lot of people who used to really be into DDR, but for the most part have better things to do, and do this casually/on the side for them. Why not get some more people into moderating who actually still have a real passion for the game? Maybe, if you would consider this for just a moment, that this forum is a reflection of those who run it, that, this forum has shrunk, not because of a waning interest in DDR, but because the forum itself has become a reflection of the waning interest of those who run it?
It may seem like this has just become, on my part, a general bash-fest on DDRFreak, and I apologize that my general frustrations with this board, which I've kept to myself until now had to come out in a specific discussion. I feel that the flaws here that I've tolerated without saying anything for so long, have been demonstrated to me in this conversation in a manner which is much more personally directed towards what I have to say, and thus I have come to express what I feel.
I know that everything I say could be refuted without giving an inch, without admitting even so much as a hint of a flaw in these boards. I do not believe such an approach to be honest, although it is a common approach. I would hope that in this situation, you would see something of use in what I've had to say, and that, it might actually make a change, even if ever so slight. I would be happy if you would at least have so much respect as to take what I have to say and not so immediately dismiss it, not instantly deny its importance, assuming that you already know better and that my comments have been made in ignorance of the way you run your boards. I'm saying what I have to say, because I think that it would be an improvement, and this isn't just some hair-brained scheme I cooked up because I was bored.
Now, explain to me why, given the detail I've put into explaining why this country is an exceptional situation, that it would hurt DDRFreak so much to split the country into two, or, even, to group us provinces together according to which states we lie nearest to? I do not feel that there would be any negative consequences to having an east/west split. I don't think it would kill people to have to scroll past one more regional board, and I honestly think it would give your Canada forum a chance to pick up. (After all, with school coming back in, I'd expect a good chance that some new people might be coming into the scene.) The only reason I've been given so far is "it's not necessary", but at the same time, nobody's told me what it would hurt. I know that it would not be hard to split the forums, and I can't possibly think of any good reason not to. I'm not asking for a different forum for each province, I realize that's unreasonable, and I acknowledge that, at least in Eastern/Western Canada, most of us actually know each other somewhat, even if vaguely, but having us all together is just, well, it doesn't work.
Like we always said at the cheesey (no pun intended) coporation I used to work at: "A customer complaing is a customer giving you a second chance" (And if you want to say we're not customers, well, you guys do make money off the ads, so we are in a way...of course having to make this technical point knowing that someone would instantly disagree with my analogy without trying to think this out themselves does irritate me, though I realize it's necessary to be anal-retentive at such a ridiculous level)
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Paranoia_Brother
Trick Member
Joined: 15 Mar 2005
Location: Clarkston, MI |
| 24. Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Crono wrote: | | Now I realize that we're not a big country in terms of population, and that other countries with larger populations have only one forum, however somewhere like Australia or the UK, though still very diverse, are more geographically confined spaces than Canada. I feel that it would be to our benefit to have something a little more specific than one forum for the entire country. |
I'm not going to try to get in on this after reading all of those posts and having ignorance for the situation, but there is something i had to point out:
The Midwest, where i live in, isn't as big as Canada, Australia, the UK and other such locations, yes i understand that. I comprehend the fact that you have a large diverse location with a moderate amount of machine locations. However, splitting the forum just like California would be unnecessary.
For a quick reference, here are the locations split up in America.
Now, what i'm trying to point out here is this: The Midwest has over 100+ more machine locations than yourself, but they are widespread throughout a large area of the Midwest. We don't need, therefore, a split forum talking about different sections of the midwest. That'd be silly. That, along with all of the other geographical regions. See how this relates to you?
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Crono
Trick Member
Joined: 23 Jan 2002
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada |
| 25. Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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Even from one corner of the midwest to the other, you are still a hell of a lot closer to one another than from one coast of Canada to the other. Not to mention North to South, but that's irrelevant consider that the North does not have any machine locations that we know of...though it's always been that way and apparently one of the machines we have in town actually came from the Yukon...so it's quite possible there are some we don't know about, but either way, the north is pretty negligible in this situation.
Point is, you're still only talking about roughly 1/2 of your country, which, even as a whole is STILL not as big as Canada, and you're comparing it to all of Canada. We are the second biggest country in this planet earth. (And if Russia keeps on shrinking, soon we will be first...as long as we keep Quebec)
And who knows, maybe splitting the midwest would actually stimulate growth, because then the forum would be actually somewhat reasonably region-based. What I'm saying here is that at worst I don't think there's really anything to lose in a Canada east/west split, and at best it would stimulate some real regional discussion. (Thus the purpose of a regional board as I understand it)
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P-Chan
Staff Member
Joined: 11 Mar 2002
Location: Chihuahua,Chih. México |
| 26. Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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you know... Latin America is a way bigger region than Canada and still only has one forum and never got any divisions
you might say that nowadays is mostly dead with only a few replies every now and then, but back in the day it used to be even as active as Random Chat... even then, we didn't split it... it made no sense at all
maybe you'd like to consider this
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Phrekwenci
Administrator
Joined: 27 Feb 2002
Location: New York, NY |
| 27. Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Crono wrote: | | We are the second biggest country in this planet earth. |
Perhaps in surface area, but not in sheer population. And I don't think the surface matters much in a memberlist. The population does.
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Spike
Administrator
Joined: 17 Jan 2002
Location: Denver |
| 28. Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 12:15 am Post subject: |
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Then there's "everything else" which covers a lot more ground than Canada. It doesn't get that many posts and so we don't split it.
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sherl0k
Maniac Member
Joined: 27 Jan 2002
Location: the internet |
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Crono
Trick Member
Joined: 23 Jan 2002
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada |
| 30. Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 11:36 am Post subject: |
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Land-mass wise, I believe Latin America is still a lot smaller than Canada. I already talked about why machine locations/population has nothing to do with the point I'm trying to make. There are the posts out there for Canada, they just aren't in this forum, simply because the layout is not logical. Canada is not a region. I understand that "everywhere else" is a pretty big region too, though it's covering areas where DDR/ITG interest is somewhere along the lines of negligible. This is not the case for Canada, it is simply that we post elsewhere because this forum does not suit our needs. If you want to have any significant portion of Canada traffic, then you need to split the forum into coherant regions, otherwise we will simply continue to post elsewhere.
The nature of the replies I've seen to my posts tells me that nobody's been reading them very thoroughly, I keep seeing time and time again the same case be made that I've already responded to very directly several times. If you don't get it by now, you're either not reading at all, carefully enough, or really are very dense. (I'm thinking it's probably mostly the first two options because people are generally lazy, though intelligent)
Either way, you might as well lock this post, it's obviously not made, and is not going to make its point. (It will just become repitious at this point anyway)
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Phrekwenci
Administrator
Joined: 27 Feb 2002
Location: New York, NY |
| 31. Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Crono wrote: | | Land-mass wise, I believe Latin America is still a lot smaller than Canada. I already talked about why machine locations/population has nothing to do with the point I'm trying to make. There are the posts out there for Canada, they just aren't in this forum, simply because the layout is not logical. Canada is not a region. I understand that "everywhere else" is a pretty big region too, though it's covering areas where DDR/ITG interest is somewhere along the lines of negligible. This is not the case for Canada, it is simply that we post elsewhere because this forum does not suit our needs. If you want to have any significant portion of Canada traffic, then you need to split the forum into coherant regions, otherwise we will simply continue to post elsewhere. |
So, the point is that Canada can have such a large gap from one person to the next is warranting a split?
How about this, if you were to prove that everyone is elsewhere because of the layout of our forum. Then we would have a much easier time regarding a split.
At the moment you are making it seem that it's our fault that we haven't suited your needs. But since this was acted upon by leaving the forum first and asking questions later, we haven't seen a reason to change things.
So, this isn't an official word, but an idea for the staff at DDR Freak and the Canadian forum. Show us that you guys are interested in posting here again and then we can fathom rendering a better layout to post in. If things somehow don't work out, you'll still have your outside forums to go to, and nothing changes here either.
But we need to see some influx of Canadian posting in order for such a change to happen, in my opinion.
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Crono
Trick Member
Joined: 23 Jan 2002
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada |
| 32. Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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Well, if you want to see where the Canada people are right now:
http://www.ddrcanada.com/forum/ (General Canada forum)
http://pointsixnine.com/forums/ (Saskatchewan forum)
http://tgllite.10.forumer.com/ (I believe you need to be registered to see their forum - eastern Canada forum)
I can't get people to come back to DDRFreak on the basis that there might be a forum split if everyone starts posting here. I won't be able to convince people used to have a forum for each province to all crowd into one forum in hopes that we might eventually get two. The current structure just doesn't support growth, and so to expect the forum to grow in order to make changes isn't reasonable.
I dunno even why I'm really trying to make this point...we're pretty happy at DDRCanada with the state of affairs, minus the lack of a real site to back it up right now. I guess I just hate to see the most major DDR site running to really not have a good setup for Canadians. I can't really give you any concrete guarantees, and I definitely can't work miracles for you, but I can tell you that I wouldn't have gone to this much trouble (and continue to go to) if I didn't feel very strongly that I had a good point. The way I see it, it really doesn't hurt anything to have East/West Canada forums...worst case scenario, you try it for a few months, and notice absolutely no change in traffic, and you ditch the idea...anyone going down to a forum lower than Canada has to scroll an extra inch, no harm done.
Maybe I just make things too simple, but that's how I see it. (And I don't see it as opening a door for everyone and their dog to have a forum, because I think I've made a pretty convincing case as to why this should be an exception)
[shrug] Whatever strikes your fancy, really...
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Phr34k
Trick Member
Joined: 14 Aug 2004
Location: London, Ontario, Canada |
| 33. Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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I have read through this entire thread, as I feel I play an important role on the Canadian DDR Community. Let me introduce myself, Sean Feica, Technical Admin at DDRCanada.com.
DDRCanada is nearly a year old now, come November. Within that time, we have managed to pull in about 450 users, with about 41000 posts (only about 5% irrelivant/spam posts, leaning towards the irrelivant side).
I don't have a lot of time to make this post as long as I would like to, as I leave for work in about 5-10 minutes. however, there are a few things that I would like to point out.
When I read about Crono suggesting that Canada be either split up into 2 or more regions, or to even be added onto the US regions, I find that a move like this would be rather logical.
For example, I live in London, Ontario, which is only about a 2 hour drive from Detroit. When major tournaments happen in Ontario, they happen in either Toronto, or Ottawa. Sadly, I am not able to travel 8 hours + to Ottawa for every tournament that may occur, however I would try to make a 2-3 hour drive to Detroit and area for an event.
That may be a bit of a poor example, as I have almost no knowledge of the US regions in my area, other then a small amount of Ohio. However, I do know that events are still occuring all over the northern part of the US that Canadians, if capable, would have interest in attending. Sadly, the last thing most of us remaining Canadian posters do is check the various other regional forums, simply because we have our own Canadian forum.
Even if, say, Ontario and Manitoba were to be placed with the Mid-West, Quebec and east gets placed with the North East, and Saskatchewan and west get placed with the North West. This would allow Canadians/Americans to start to converse a bit more within the regional comunities. This could very well help not only the Canadian participants on the forums, but the American counterparts as well.
The talk of the machine location numbers sort of disturbs me when no-one has concluded to count the numbers if Canada was split up in 3 ways. You would be adding aprox. 60 machines to the Northwest, 60 to Midwest, and about 30-50 for the Northeast. And in turn, removing a forum from the boards.
This of course is just an opinion, to be taken with a grain of salt by those who read it. However, I do care about seeing ANY community grow with eachother. By leaving Canada in it's own forum simply makes it look like we are being shoved into a corner (a very large one). Why not mix Canadians and Americans together?
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Braki
Trick Member
Joined: 18 Dec 2002
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada |
| 34. Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not sure how viable it would be to split Canada in with the US. No matter how close they are physically, they're still separate countries.
Take, for instance, the Canadian DDR Conferences. The first two were Western Canada. Well, why? Why wasn't it the BC/Alberta/Washington/Montana Conference? Last July, when the conference extended to all of Canada... why? Why not just go further into the US instead, since they're closer anyway? It's a sense of national unity that we just don't share with the United States.
I mean, I guess you could argue that combining areas of Canada with the US could bring more interaction between the two communities, but I don't really believe it because we've never even really THOUGHT of travelling to the US that much. There are certain Calgarians ~coughCronocough~ who travel all over the place for DDR. I remember him going with some other people to the US once... but not before stopping by Vancouver first. I mean, he's gone to Ontario, Winnipeg, Saskatoon, and Edmonton, along with smaller, closer towns like Lethbridge, Medicine Hat, and Red Deer. How often is there a road trip to the US? Not very often at all.
Or hey, take the Winnipeg people. They've crossed the border as a group... twice, I think? But they've made many trips to Calgary, which is about 1600km away and way farther than the US city they went to.
I mean, if there's virtually zero interest in going to the US in the first place, I don't think it would dramatically increase with a merging of forums.
And then there'd also be no way to make posts that may extend past the borders of your region. Take Mark's PIU post in the Canada forum... how would he ask a question that applies nationally if everything's split up? Having that forum is good for those occasions. |
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