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Cutriss
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Joined: 24 Jan 2002
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120.  Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 6:11 am Post subject: |
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| PedanticOmbudsman wrote: | And guess what... nobody will be forced to play the bad games. Just like
Have you ever heard of Capitalism? |
The existence of the bad games in general sours the entire market, as it reduces the public perception of all offerings.
For example - for years, Hyundai made cheap but rather bad cars. Along comes Kia, who also offers cheap cars. People already have experience with bad Korean cars, so there's already a poor public reception of Kia, even though Hyundai isn't so bad anymore.
Whoa...there's your capitalism again.
Regardless of which game is first to market, all that matters is which one someone sees first, and how informed the individual is about the product offerings he sees. If someone comes along and doesn't care for ITG because, say, of its music, that person might be perfectly happy with DDR, but he's also less inclined to play it because he already tried a game "just like it".
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Wolfman Jake
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Joined: 13 Sep 2002
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| 121. Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:27 am Post subject: |
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Hurray! Someone else actually has an understanding of how the "consuming mind" works.
And Tiza, I'd have to find the sources for this info again, but I'm pretty sure even F2 System squared away a deal with Konami AND Andamiro first before bringing Techno Motion to market. Again, it's just extremely unlikely Konami would have made such a flippant "contract" with Roxor to develop and market ITG. You don't turn down a chance at profit that requires ZERO investment from you. Furthermore, any kind of "yes" from Konami would almost assuredly have meant that Roxor would have paid Konami royalties for the licensing of the DDR mechanics for the ITG. If they didn't, wouldn't Andamiro and presumedly F2 System get a bit cranky that THEY had to pay Konami royalties but Roxor didn't? Couple that with the fact that Roxor was using Konami's own machines to market their DDR clone. I just can't see Konami giving an OK to something that will be 1) a blatant clone of their intellectual property and 2) something that destroys every one of their games for every one of it installed. Not even PIU did that. Andamiro at least sold their dance game in its own cabinets. The pieces all come together to form a pretty clear picture: Konami did NOT give Roxor permission to make ITG. Yes, all we have is opinions right now, but some opinions are a lot more logical and informed than others.
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woodmanismyTWINbrother
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Joined: 15 Dec 2003
Location: Broken Arrow or Tahlequah, OK |
| 122. Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:43 am Post subject: |
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when you're being sued, the thing is to countersue
i dont exactly know why but it seems like thats the thing to do
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diddrstrait
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Joined: 01 Jan 2004
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| 123. Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 8:05 am Post subject: |
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| Cutriss wrote: | | a bunch of stuff about hyundai |
hey! I like my hyundai thank you very much  . I'm very lucky to have a working one though, and to never have had any major problems in the 7 years I've had it. I know exactly what you're saying though, and you are correct. |
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ColorOfSakura
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Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Location: The user formerly known as Zajitarrius |
| 124. Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 8:42 am Post subject: |
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My thoughts on the matter (posted back during the amended complaint was filed) haven't changed. I feel like Roxor is even more retarded for trying to countersue Konami with no actual basis.
I like ITG, but they're going to get raped in court. Honestly.
My thoughts on it is here. I don't wanna worry about getting around the language filters and all that, so here you go:
http://www.livejournal.com/users/colorofsakura/84309.html
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â
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Joined: 25 Jan 2002
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| 125. Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 10:44 am Post subject: |
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| Encrusted Broken Toy wrote: |
not to mention taht solo had a quad and that wave was also in DDR first as well as that ITG borrowed magic dance form DDR disney |
Solo had hands? You're not talking about     are you? 'Cuz that's not a hand.
| Cutriss wrote: | | Regardless of which game is first to market, all that matters is which one someone sees first, and how informed the individual is about the product offerings he sees. If someone comes along and doesn't care for ITG because, say, of its music, that person might be perfectly happy with DDR, but he's also less inclined to play it because he already tried a game "just like it". |
Not the best example. It assumes that DDR hasn't already established itself.
Many people have seen or heard of DDR at this moment. When Joe Schmoe hears "dancing game," if he thinks of anything at all, it's gonna be Dance Dance Revolution (or some bastardization of the brand name). And they'll see any other game, they'll think another Dance Dance Revolution clone (which there have been several, but not as close as ITG).
Resident Evil has clones. Halo has clones. Devil May Cry had clones. Goldeneye had a few clones. Mario Kart had clones. Mario 64 had/has clones. Super Mario Bros had clones. Final Fantasy had clones. Street Fighter had clones. REALLY, REALLY close clones, too.
It didn't stop the established games from profiting and staying the frontrunner. People didn't play the 7-Up Spot game, then play Mario Bros 3 and think "gah, this is just like that crappy 7-Up game; I'll tell everyone not to buy this dreck." Same goes for the DDR clones. 'Cuz the games already established, and the clones, unless of ultra-high quality, won't do much anything to that market.
But this really doesn't even apply in this situation anyway, since, ya know, Konami stopped making arcade mixes...
[personal rant]
ITG is a DDR clone, and a damned close one. It's kinda obvious. Hell, when Cutriss first told me about it, I said I was happy 'cuz "there was a new arcade DDR" and that's all I care about. Not Roxor's bottom line or Konami's innovation; I'm not a stockholder so why should I (or you)? My primary concern is my own personal benefit as a consumer. THAT is "consuming" or "capitalism" or whatever. Brand/company loyalty (better known as "fanboyism") is an ugly and baffling byproduct, and I see too much of it here.
Roxor loses this case, and that means no more arcade DDR. Konami, win or lose (looks like win, to me), is likely gonna continue to make home DDR (if they continue to give enough of a shit), but they're not making any more arcade DDR.
[/personal rant] |
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IHYD.Tiza
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Joined: 26 Jun 2005
Location: Escondido, CA |
| 126. Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 11:01 am Post subject: |
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This is something that's been sceaming for me to say for awhile, so I think I'll say it. There's no guarantee that Konami is not making any new arcade DDR. Again, DS Fusion was a HUGE tipoff, seeing as how Europe is Konami's arcade testing ground. Why make new hardware for a region that carries less of a sales clout (for DDR, I mean) than their own country? Also, for everybody that's sending letters to Konami and hearing "no new DDR," did you even take care to send it to JAPAN instead of KCEA? Konami's American arcade branch was dissolved; you won't see any more out of them. You email KCEA and ask about DDR, and of course they're saying no new DDR because they're not making new arcade ANYTHINGS. Ask Tokyo and they're noncommittal. That's what I did, and that's what they said.
So KCET isn't saying yes OR no, new hardware came out in Europe, and Konami's attacking Roxor for ITG? Seems to me that the evidence is stacking up in favor of something new, and EX2 US isn't what I'm thinking. |
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PARANOiA -Respect-
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Joined: 07 Apr 2005
Location: The PARANOiA Universe |
| 127. Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 11:19 am Post subject: |
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| didn't at the end of a nonstop course i think the one with hysteria had 4 hands? |
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Kyrandian
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Joined: 24 Mar 2002
Location: Portland, OR |
| 128. Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 11:25 am Post subject: |
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Can't Stop Fallin' in Love and Paranoia Evolution on Solo had 4 arrows at once, but they weren't meant to be hit with your hands.
My (brief) thoughts on this: I want to see Roxor come out of this alright. A loss for for Konami would be a victory for the consumer. Regardless of your personal opinion on the game, you can't deny that Roxor is doing a good thing by keeping "DDR" alive in the arcades and pressuring Konami to step their game up a notch. Countersuing is the right move, and I have faith that Roxor has planned ahead and knows how to handle this. To say that we've been tricked or lied to about the legality of ITG is too presumptuous.
Last edited by Kyrandian on Thu Aug 18, 2005 11:49 am, edited 1 time in total |
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Char
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Joined: 30 Apr 2004
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| 129. Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 11:33 am Post subject: |
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| Tiza (you KNOW!) wrote: | | Why make new hardware for a region that carries less of a sales clout (for DDR, I mean) than their own country? |
Ahem, I think you'll find that DDR (and ITG) is still regularly played and thus profitable in the UK, with actual machines too. More than you can say for America's bootleg-fest and Japan's outright dislike of DDR, last year's fad. |
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Mr. A
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Joined: 20 Oct 2003
Location: INTERNET |
| 130. Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Kyrandian wrote: | Can't Stop Fallin' in Love and Paranoia Evolution on Solo had 4 arrows at once, but they weren't meant to be hit with your hands.
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What? No way!
(Alpha does some research...)
Wow, this is, in fact, true! At least for CSFIL Solo Maniac!
Last step on the chart
Yeah, and I hope that Roxor does at least come out with an even keel after this is all said and done. They have worked hard to create a system that adds inovative new features while Konami did the same stuff over, and over, and over again with pratically no changes. |
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IHYD.Tiza
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Joined: 26 Jun 2005
Location: Escondido, CA |
| 131. Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Char wrote: | | Tiza (you KNOW!) wrote: | | Why make new hardware for a region that carries less of a sales clout (for DDR, I mean) than their own country? |
Ahem, I think you'll find that DDR (and ITG) is still regularly played and thus profitable in the UK, with actual machines too. More than you can say for America's bootleg-fest and Japan's outright dislike of DDR, last year's fad. |
Regardless of who likes DDR and why, Europe is ALWAYS the testing ground for American and Japanese game companies (oh wait, isn't that nearly all of them?), because Japan and the the U.S. are the biggest video game consumers. When I said "for DDR," I should've said "for video games in general." |
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â
Trick Member
Joined: 25 Jan 2002
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| 132. Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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The 6-panel Solo machine 4-step thing is a jump. The solo machine didn't have anything type of panel or segment separating from and from so you could easily (but awkwardly, since you have to do it in the "middle") jump using only your feet.
| Tiza (you KNOW!) wrote: | This is something that's been sceaming for me to say for awhile, so I think I'll say it. There's no guarantee that Konami is not making any new arcade DDR. Again, DS Fusion was a HUGE tipoff, seeing as how Europe is Konami's arcade testing ground. Why make new hardware for a region that carries less of a sales clout (for DDR, I mean) than their own country? Also, for everybody that's sending letters to Konami and hearing "no new DDR," did you even take care to send it to JAPAN instead of KCEA? Konami's American arcade branch was dissolved; you won't see any more out of them. You email KCEA and ask about DDR, and of course they're saying no new DDR because they're not making new arcade ANYTHINGS. Ask Tokyo and they're noncommittal. That's what I did, and that's what they said.
So KCET isn't saying yes OR no, new hardware came out in Europe, and Konami's attacking Roxor for ITG? Seems to me that the evidence is stacking up in favor of something new, and EX2 US isn't what I'm thinking. |
Maybe, and I do hope there's some truth in it, since ITG will probably be gone once the litigation gets settled. At best, I hope ITG's brief little stint would motivate Konami in making another arcade DDR, even as "consolation" to the people that started playing and liking ITG.
But US arcades are defunct. Many once-arcade-staple companies have gotten out of the arcade business in favor of home consoles (Midway, Capcom, Konami). Namco, biggest arcade operator, has more or less screwed its own arcades by hurrying the PS2 release of T5 and completely forgoing an arcade release of SC3. And, Konami took out its American arcade division a few years ago (like you said); if they wanted a new machine to compete/replace US-based ITG, that probably would have been the division to do it. AND, I hear from many folks (wish I could confirm it myself) that DDR is not the huge fad in Japan as it used to be.
And Europe isn't always the testing ground for arcade companies. Namco almost always exclusively limits its fighting game betas to Japan and California (Korea's also been getting love lately). Been doing that since Tekken Tag.
No, there's not a guarantee that Konami won't ever make another arcade release. But with things the way they are, it don't seem all that likely.
But, again, I hope I'm wrong. |
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Thomas Hobbes
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Joined: 20 Aug 2002
Location: San Francisco // NorCal |
| 133. Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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I want Konami to win and if that means RoXoR's code and their franchise of In the Groove gets killed, I wouldn't mind. I'm serious.
I barely In the Groove 2 anyways; I play mostly DDR anyways. However, I do appreciate In the Groove and do enjoy it. I just haven't played In the Groove 2 that much, as I suck horribly at its new timing, but then again - that's another discussion. 
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VxJasonxV
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Joined: 08 Feb 2002
Location: Castle Rock, CO |
| 134. Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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*gives Baka a "play"*
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Thomas Hobbes
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Location: San Francisco // NorCal |
| 135. Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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| VxJasonxV wrote: | | *gives Baka a "play"* |
What's THAT supposed to mean?
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spartan118
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Joined: 20 Nov 2004
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| 136. Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Wolfman Jake wrote: | | PedanticOmbudsman wrote: | Yay for RoXoR.
I said months ago that if RoXoR plays their cards right, they can have Konami's patents completely invalidated, which would not only save ITG but would open up the whole dance-game genre for fair competition from anyone, not just RoXoR.
Anyone who cares about freedom and the dance-gaming genre will consider this great news. |
Or it will allow everyone to simply throw whatever DDR clone they want on the market (MC GROOVZ dance CRAZE), in the hopes of fooling the masses (not hard to do) creating a glut of similar dance games, many of which will probably be piss poor, bringing the entire genre down with it. Yeah, sounds great to me. Here's a clue, since no one seems to have gotten it yet: EVERYONE is free to make dance games already! Konami's NOT stopping you. All you have to do (and this is key here, so pay attention) is show an iota of actual innovation and create a dance game with unique mechanics that do NOT so obviously overlap with Konami's patented gameplay mechanics for DDR (even better, try not to hijack their machines in the process either). It's really not that hard to envision. Sony created Eyetoy Groove. That's definitely a dance game, and it's definitely far from DDR in terms of gameplay, both in terms of the interaction of the player with the game and the execution of said game on the whole. |
Here's some news: a ton of crap has ALWAYS been the byproduct of an ounce of quality. That's the entertainment industry for you right there; and no court ruling will ever change that. So I don't give a crap if RoXoR winning will mean a bunch of bad clones. What I do care about is if ITG still has a future and if Konami is abusing capitalism and doing a disservice to consumers. Screw all the potential crap - we already know where the quality is, so why in the world would you care about a bunch of DDR clones you'll never play?
Another point: How can you be innovative in the dancing genre when there are only about two economical ways to do it (DDR and Dance Maniax) - both most likely patented by Konami in the first place? Konami should probably sue Sony for their EyeToy Groove game (or vice versa) because DDR Extreme/Festival uses the EyeToy for dance routines as well. The only other possible innovation has already been done - a long, long time ago - and that was Spider Stomp, which wasn't even a dancing game. So you're basically screwed out of the only ways to actually make a dancing game, indirectly due to (faulty?) patent laws.
Besides, isn't there supposed to be a limit to how long you can hold on to a patent anyway until it becomes public property anyway? Or does that only apply to medicine?
And here's another thing that might as well be taken to court as well: RoXoR vs. Pop 'n Ko, due to infringement on ITG's status map and letter grades.
Plus, to the guy that said hands were on earlier versions of DDR: I think you may have been watching one too many old freestyle videos, because DDR does not have hands.
By the way, I believe Konami has a good chance of winning against RoXoR, since there are mechanics Konami has patented that RoXoR obviously infringed upon: those same mechanics which make me believe Neon FM could be sued as well. |
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Thomas Hobbes
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Location: San Francisco // NorCal |
| 137. Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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I heard that Konami was with the makers of Neon FM during production to make sure that none of their game mechanics infringe on their patents, etcetera. I think it's highly unlikely, as that game is basically the same concept of Konami's patents.
Also, doesn't someone hold a patent for 25 years or something?
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DDRNemesis
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Wolfman Jake
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| 139. Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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spartan118, try reading the rest of the thread. You should care about crappy DDR clones because they potentially sour public opinion of the genre OVERALL. That means they reflect badly on DDR AND ITG. Try thinking things through just a little harder.
Also, why would Konami sue Sony over Eyetoy Groove? Sony came up with a different gimmick that works quite well and doesn't infringe on Konami's patents.
Finally, I think the software patents are good for at least 10 years, and possibly as many as 20. DDR was only first released in 1998, so Konami has another good 3 to 13 years on those patents.
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