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DJTyrant
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Joined: 25 Jan 2002
Location: Ventura, CA |
100.  Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:34 am Post subject: |
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About being ok with ITG.
Konami: Yeah go ahead and make ITG (you'll fail anyways)
a year later...
Konami: Give us your money, we don't like that you're making money now!
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Wolfman Jake
Trick Member
Joined: 13 Sep 2002
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| 101. Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:42 am Post subject: |
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That's ridiculous. IF Konami had granted Roxor permission to make ITG, why WOULDN'T they take the offer for a cut of the profits!? Even if ITG had utterly FAILED Konami would still get money. It's a win win situation for them if they had granted Roxor permission. It makes absolutely no sense for Konami to reject an offer at profit from the game IF Konami had granted permission/a license, etc. to Roxor to make ITG. Can you understand that? Given the unlikeliness of this scenario, it is so much more likely that Konami was either never asked or said no to Roxor. Therefore, there is NOTHING for Konami to have changed its mind about. Again, I ask you, think.
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Syncopation
Trick Member
Joined: 03 Feb 2003
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| 102. Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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| TCBCR.Toastercookie wrote: | | Quote: | | Mods exist in ITG because they existed in StepMania too |
It's actually the opposite of this. Almost all of the new mods for ITG and stuff like mines were developed specificlaly for ITG and then added to SM. ITG was in the works long before alot of people got wind of it. |
That's interesting. Hands existed in earlier Pump It Up mixes as triples and quads. Mines could be found in Pump It Up Exceed 2 (maybe earlier?) as a Minefield option in Battle mode. |
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Thomas Hobbes
Trick Member
Joined: 20 Aug 2002
Location: San Francisco // NorCal |
| 103. Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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I do agree with Wolfman Jake.
RoXoR was acting so arrogant and confident that they wouldn't get sued. For a while people would ask if it was legal in the RoXoR Forums and they'd get locked with the general effect of "Shut up. It is.".
Now RoXoR gets called on their bluff by Konami. This is proof that they were wrong, as it is NOT legal, otherwise Konami wouldn't of sued.
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diddrstrait
Trick Member
Joined: 01 Jan 2004
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| 104. Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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| St00pidBaka // BluR wrote: | | Now RoXoR gets called on their bluff by Konami. This is proof that they were wrong, as it is NOT legal, otherwise Konami wouldn't of sued. |
just because you can sue someone doesn't make you right/wrong/legal/illegal. I can sue someone for stepping on my foot, but that doesn't mean it's illegal or wrong or that I will win. |
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Thomas Hobbes
Trick Member
Joined: 20 Aug 2002
Location: San Francisco // NorCal |
| 105. Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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It is not though, according to Konami's complaints which I agree with. Hah, it didn't take that long to figure my opinion on this, eh? 
Konami holds patents in which RoXoR has infringed on with their own franchise, In the Groove. Plus, isn't In the Groove the only thing that's really successful for RoXoR anyways? Tux Racer isn't that famous or well known, or anything.
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Char
Trick Member
Joined: 30 Apr 2004
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| 106. Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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| St00pidBaka // BluR wrote: | | For a while people would ask if it was legal in the RoXoR Forums and they'd get locked with the general effect of "Shut up. It is.". |
More like for a while people would constantly roll in from DDRfreak and GameFAQs and other wonderful sites and post threads like "I JUST SAW SCREENSHOTS IS THIS LEGAL KONAMI IS GOING TO FLIP".
If people kept posting "I JUST SAW THE SIMFILE DATABASE IS THIS LEGAL" on Bemanistyle, I'd probably lock the threads and tell people to shut up, but that's not the same as claiming full legal stability. In any case, it's not like anyone's been found to be in the wrong or right yet. |
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Edible Bondage Tape
Trick Member
Joined: 26 Jan 2002
Location: Kerri |
| 107. Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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| xbskid wrote: |
| Encrusted Broken Toy wrote: | | actualy DJ potatoe kept tellingkonami how infrenging ITG was untill they decided to go look and sue roxor and as much as DJ potatoe keps saying he wont get sued its only because he wont ever make neough money to be WORTH sueing i can guarentee if he isnt paying massive royaltiues to konami and he makes any real money he will get buried under a mountain of red tape |
The fun part about this is that there is absolutely no facts in this quote to back up its accusation. Unless you people can prove to me and everyone else that DJ Potatoe actually instigated the lawsuits, then what you say is automatically invalid and should be ignored. Something like this cannot be easily proved anyway and could very well be a blatant lie.
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maticus already did prove it
plus even if maticus made everything up dj potatoe is still a prick
| Syncopation wrote: | | TCBCR.Toastercookie wrote: | | Quote: | | Mods exist in ITG because they existed in StepMania too |
It's actually the opposite of this. Almost all of the new mods for ITG and stuff like mines were developed specificlaly for ITG and then added to SM. ITG was in the works long before alot of people got wind of it. |
That's interesting. Hands existed in earlier Pump It Up mixes as triples and quads. Mines could be found in Pump It Up Exceed 2 (maybe earlier?) as a Minefield option in Battle mode. |
not to mention taht solo had a quad and that wave was also in DDR first as well as that ITG borrowed magic dance form DDR disney
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Last edited by Edible Bondage Tape on Wed Aug 17, 2005 1:30 pm, edited 1 time in total |
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ddr_hero
Trick Member
Joined: 24 Apr 2004
Location: local rhythm police station |
| 108. Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Goggles wrote: | Some idiot earlier asked, "So how is RoXor NOT a legitamate company?"
When you are a legitamate company, you use your own equipment. You don't use other companies ideas, let alone hardware and then call the finished product unique. It would be like a new car company taking a Toyota car, removing the shell, and putting on their own and calling it something else, then selling it to the public. They didn't put any research into car mechanics, they didn't craft their own parts, save for the shell of the car, they didn't even have to hire people that knew what they were doing for the sake of engines and other neccessary car parts. They just stripped an existing product and made it look different. Fact remains, it's the same product on the inside.
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so in other words, just as RoXor made stuff that works on a ddr machine, they aren't a real company. just as toyo tires isn't a real company because they don't make a corolla, but they do make stuff you put on your corolla after taking the original equipment off your toyota, and replacing it with toyo equpiment. the goal of the product is to make the original unit better than it was originaly. and no, this is exactly the same, If ITG was an acessory for your car, it'd be like a turbo for your current car, made only because of the fact that recent models of the car were lacking in compari8son to older models.
IMHO ITG was only made as a wakeup call to konami saying "if you're not going to continue with this market, we are." think of it as konami and RoXoR are 2 3 year olds. konami gets a new dump truck that he plays with in a sand box. konami plays with the truck for a while, then throws it aside in favor of another toy. RoXoR sees the dump truck and begins playing with it. RoXoR is having alot of fun playing with it too. Konami sees this and becomes Enraged and runs to his mom or the legal system. "MOMMY! he took my toy!, no i wasn't playing with it at the time, nor did i intend to, but I WANT IT! I WANT IT! I WANT IT! GIVE IT BACK!" that is my view on the situation.
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PedanticOmbudsman
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Joined: 07 Jan 2005
Location: Fayetteville, AR |
| 109. Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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Yay for RoXoR.
I said months ago that if RoXoR plays their cards right, they can have Konami's patents completely invalidated, which would not only save ITG but would open up the whole dance-game genre for fair competition from anyone, not just RoXoR.
Anyone who cares about freedom and the dance-gaming genre will consider this great news.
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Wolfman Jake
Trick Member
Joined: 13 Sep 2002
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| 110. Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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| PedanticOmbudsman wrote: | Yay for RoXoR.
I said months ago that if RoXoR plays their cards right, they can have Konami's patents completely invalidated, which would not only save ITG but would open up the whole dance-game genre for fair competition from anyone, not just RoXoR.
Anyone who cares about freedom and the dance-gaming genre will consider this great news. |
Or it will allow everyone to simply throw whatever DDR clone they want on the market (MC GROOVZ dance CRAZE), in the hopes of fooling the masses (not hard to do) creating a glut of similar dance games, many of which will probably be piss poor, bringing the entire genre down with it. Yeah, sounds great to me. Here's a clue, since no one seems to have gotten it yet: EVERYONE is free to make dance games already! Konami's NOT stopping you. All you have to do (and this is key here, so pay attention) is show an iota of actual innovation and create a dance game with unique mechanics that do NOT so obviously overlap with Konami's patented gameplay mechanics for DDR (even better, try not to hijack their machines in the process either). It's really not that hard to envision. Sony created Eyetoy Groove. That's definitely a dance game, and it's definitely far from DDR in terms of gameplay, both in terms of the interaction of the player with the game and the execution of said game on the whole.
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The Game II
Contributor
Joined: 06 Mar 2002
Location: Long Beach or Glendale, CA |
| 111. Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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In the terms of Konami allegedly giving the OK for Roxor to produce ITG...
| St00pidBaka // BluR wrote: | | I do agree with Wolfman Jake. |
And I agree as well. Like I said earlier, it was something that stayed on my mind when I first heard of ITG going into production. Is there anything out there that indicates that Konami gave the OK? Anything? A letter? A phone convo that both parties can remember? Instant messaging? Smoke signals? That IMO could be a big key in this whole lawsuit, whether Konami gave the thumbz0R. Taking a quick glance back, this is all I could see about Roxor getting the OK, but that's not definitive IMO.
I know many of us are praying that Roxor somehow comes off and is still able to produce ITG mixes. I'm one of them, I really hope ITG continues to have future mixes because ITG2 is great; it's been a while since I've been excited to go to the arcade to play a stepping game. Until the aformentioned question is answered, I'm not feeling good about Roxor winning this lawsuit. I'll keep saving all my optimism for the Giants winning the NL West.
--GCII
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Thomas Hobbes
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Joined: 20 Aug 2002
Location: San Francisco // NorCal |
| 112. Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 12:29 am Post subject: |
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In all honesty, I wish Konami would win. I think they're in the all clear, green light all the way. They should win, cause I find their argument to be strongest/better in this case.
Yet, I do think that the in the Groove franchise is great.
However, I'd be willing to sacrifice ITG playing, etcetera if I knew Konami did win because they were in the right. Plus, I know the people at RoXoR knows that their game is a success and will try to get out the game otherwise.
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Pixymisa
Basic Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2004
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| 113. Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 1:30 am Post subject: |
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| St00pidBaka // BluR wrote: | | I wish Konami would win. I think they're all clear, green light all the way. They should win, cause I find their argument to be strongest/better in this case. |
Bold used for armchair lawyering fun and the rest as there are no actual arguments.
| St00pidBaka // BluR wrote: | "Yet, I do think that the in the Groove franchise is great.
However, I'd be willing to sacrifice ITG playing, etcetera if I knew Konami did win because they were in the right." |
So let me get this straight, you like ITG but hope Roxor lose because think Konami is right?
What if this caused the company to go into administration and we didn't get another ITG? This may be a pessamistic view but could well happen.
Personally I'm no lawyer and I'm not going to start hedging bets on who wins, it'll be down to which lawyer has the best argument and who the judge favours but we should keep the Konami fanboying to a minimum and make constructive posts using the great word 'because'. |
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IHYD.Tiza
Trick Member
Joined: 26 Jun 2005
Location: Escondido, CA |
| 114. Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 2:21 am Post subject: |
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| DJTyrant wrote: | About being ok with ITG.
Konami: Yeah go ahead and make ITG (you'll fail anyways)
a year later...
Konami: Give us your money, we don't like that you're making money now! |
Quoted for emphasis.
Jake, that's a prefectly logical assumption, and it holds just as much weight as anything you've suggested so far. Why? Well, I'll say this again because people don't seem to be realizing it yet.
NOTHING WE SAY IS ANY MORE VALID OR INVALID THEN WHAT ANYBODY ELSE SAYS BECAUSE NONE OF US ACTUALLY KNOW ANYTHING
Now that we have that established, allow me to make a few points of my own.
I personally think that Tyrant's assumption was right, because that's just how business works. I make techno and sell a little of it every now and then, nothing too major but I make a few bucks. If I were to send Konami a letter saying "Hi, I'm a college student who makes techno and I'd like to remix Max 300 and put it on my next album. Is that okay?" they'd probably either ignore me or look me up, find out that my album sales max out around $500 a year, and say "Sure, kid, whatever," because they assume that I can't pose a serious threat. However, if suddenly some rep discovers my album by some freak accident and I hit the big time and go platinum, Konami's gonna flip because, if nothing else, they could be making some money off of my success too.
This is the same thing. Roxor probably submitted some weak notice or request about the forthcoming ITG, and Konami said "You'll make money off of this? Yeah, Techno Motion said the same thing..." and gave another "Sure, kid, whatever." Suddenly, ITG is catching on and is actually selling, well enough for a sequel and a limited partnership with Andamiro, who we all know has a bit of unpleasant history with Konami.
Potential patent infringement + New rival's success + Old rival's intervention = Blood-sniffing lawsuit
That's what it looks like to me.
This isn't about good guys or bad guys, right or wrong, I think. I think this is Konami either wanting money from Roxor, losing money because of the lost advertising, or getting upset because a new arcade mix is coming. And for the record, I think a new arcade mix is coming, because yeah, the new DS was a huge clue.
The 3rd-party car upgrades is a perfectly good analogy. In order to get ITG, you have to buy a DDR machine. Konami still gets their sale. Patent infringement? I'm neither a lawyer nor an armchair lawyer, and I have no idea of the legal implications of any of either party's actions or the solidness of their claims. What I do see is that ITG is a 3rd-party aftermarket upgrade; you buy the real product first, then you add this on. So is a Toyo tire, a Gameshark, or a Logitek keyboard.
I'd also like to point out the minimal usage of hyperbole, positive or negative connotation, or fanboyism in my post. In case you're curious or want to try to use something like this against me, listen up. I love DDR. I love ITG. I play both of them in the arcade often. I want both to survive and thrive and improve themselves and learn a little bit from each other. I don't intend on starting a flame war with what I write. If that's what it becomes, I'm leaving and ignoring this. If you don't have anything nice to say about me or what I think, or you can't argue with me without trying to make somebody the bad guy, then I'm not going to waste my time here. |
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Wolfman Jake
Trick Member
Joined: 13 Sep 2002
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| 115. Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 2:29 am Post subject: |
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| Pixymisa wrote: | | Personally I'm no lawyer and I'm not going to start hedging bets on who wins, it'll be down to which lawyer has the best argument and who the judge favours but we should keep the Konami fanboying to a minimum and make constructive posts using the great word 'because'. |
Well, on that same vein, we should keep the Roxor fanboyism down to a minimum as well. I'm not saying you in particular are guilty of Roxor fanboyism, however, if you really want thoughtful discussion, you wouldn't want blind fanboyism of either game or company. Also, to be fair to St00pidBaka, he did use "because" in his statement, which you state as stipulation for "constructive posting." His premise is a willingness to let ITG production be terminated only IF Konami is indeed in the right. That's not so odd to say that such consequences are acceptable if it is found that Roxor had done wrong in producing ITG in the first place. Will Roxor lose? Will ITG end if Roxor loses? Stay tuned to the epic 16+ month-long drama!
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Pixymisa
Basic Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2004
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| 116. Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 3:30 am Post subject: |
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If you want to be real anal about it, he said 'cause'. I should have phrased it better and said "the word 'because' only belongs when a constructive argument is presented".
I do see where you're coming from though and agree that Roxor fanboys should be put down as well. 
Armchair lawyering should be stopped to. |
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xbskid
Trick Member
Joined: 06 Sep 2004
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| 117. Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 3:50 am Post subject: |
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| Tiza (you KNOW!) wrote: | | Potential patent infringement + New rival's success + Old rival's intervention = Blood-sniffing lawsuit |
I wish Hollywood would make this into a movie.  |
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PedanticOmbudsman
Trick Member
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
Location: Fayetteville, AR |
| 118. Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 3:58 am Post subject: |
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| Wolfman Jake wrote: | | Or it will allow everyone to simply throw whatever DDR clone they want on the market (MC GROOVZ dance CRAZE), in the hopes of fooling the masses (not hard to do) creating a glut of similar dance games, many of which will probably be piss poor |
And guess what... nobody will be forced to play the bad games. Just like
Have you ever heard of Capitalism?
I doubt you have.
But look it up.
It's awesome.
But I expect you're a follower of Konamunism instead.
(p.s. I am, to the best of my knowledge, the inventor, discoverer, and first user of the word "Konamunism", but I won't sue others for using it because I prefer to be on the moral high ground.)
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Edible Bondage Tape
Trick Member
Joined: 26 Jan 2002
Location: Kerri |
| 119. Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 4:19 am Post subject: |
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| PedanticOmbudsman wrote: |
(p.s. I am, to the best of my knowledge, the inventor, discoverer, and first user of the word "Konamunism", but I won't sue others for using it because I prefer to be on the moral high ground.) |
actuly if you did a good lawyer could proove that youd be inifiringing on konamis intelectul proprety
much like roxor is
cool isnt it
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