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Wakka Lakka
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40.  Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 11:59 am Post subject: |
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| Uiru wrote: | | Does eDrive have permission to do that? |
That's a good one and it also points out why the car analogies need to cease. The economics involved just don't apply at all. In order to sell an 'eDrive modified' Toyota eDrive has to buy a Toyota. (I know the same applies to the Boxor, but bear with me). Someday, suppose Toyota wants to sell the same thing as a native product. Unfortunately for eDrive, Toyota will always be able to undercut them on the price since Toyota marks the vehicle up before selling it to eDrive. Sure someone could take an old Toyota and just 'eDrive' it without buying a new car (thus cheating Toyota out of a sale) but then they would have an old (and less valuable) car. The same isn't true of the Boxor - if someone decides to take an old DDR cabinet and 'Boxor' it (thus cheating Konami out of a sale) the result is still quite commercially viable (people will pump quarters into it like a new machine). My point is that automakers typically profit from aftermarket modifications and therefore encourage that sort of thing - the economics are totally different so they don't apply to video games.
Last edited by Wakka Lakka on Tue Aug 16, 2005 12:00 pm, edited 1 time in total |
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yyr
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| 41. Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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| DDRNemesis wrote: | 93. Not only do Roxorâs products not literally infringe the â835 patent, but, in
addition, Roxorâs products are so different in function and operation from that disclosed in the
â835 patent that Roxorâs products could not be found to infringe under the doctrine of
equivalents.
Can Roxor really say that about ITG? They are not different in function and they use the same basic gameplay. |
WE know that. But look at the patent. EVERYTHING in there is VERY specific. If ANYTHING is different AT ALL (which it technically is), Roxor can claim a difference. If there are several such differences, Roxor can claim that their product is not infringing. Will it hold up in court? That's for a jury to decide.
| Uiru wrote: | | I would be interested in a clarification of how, exactly, Konami has been willfully and unfairly trying to frick around with ITG's sales, when Roxor has been stripping DDR cabinets left right and center to put their crap in. |
First off, Roxor's customers are modifying the DDR cabinets, not Roxor themselves. Second, all Roxor did was offer the product for sale. DDR's sales neither increased nor decreased as a result of said sales (because they remained at a constant of zero. And changes in home version sales are not directly a part of this--nor is there any proof that they're indirectly affected, nor is there any way of obtaining said proof--so they can be labeled irrelevant). But there is a significant chance that interest in buying ITG modification kits dropped to near-zero after the lawsuit was filed, therefore affecting ITG sales.
| Wolfman Jake wrote: | | This countersuit is changing my opinion of the Roxor team, unfortunately. |
We don't even have any proof that the exact same team behind the game was directly responsible for the decision to challenge Konami's suit. Who knows? Maybe Lionel Hutz really is responsible.
Just a note: something like 11 years ago, Capcom sued Data East over its blatant ripoff of Street Fighter II called Fighter's History. Capcom pointed to the same 2-out-of-3 format, the joystick and 6 buttons in the familiar layout, and the virtually identical gameplay mechanics, special move commands, character designs and heads-up displays. 1-on-1 fighters weren't a dime a dozen just yet, so one could argue they had a case. Any gamer with a pulse and two eyes could tell that FH was a complete and direct ripoff, and a bad one at that. But Data East won the suit. Look at all the video game ripoffs that have appeared over the years...they're all legal. The only difference here is that Konami patented the hardware. No matter how small, Roxor has a shot at winning this... and they must be aware of that, otherwise they wouldn't have gone for it.
| Uiru wrote: | | If Roxor wins this, all copyrights everywhere will become invalid and innovation will cease (some will argue it has already ceased) because all you have to do is steal your competitors' idea and then reference this case, saving millions in R&D and development costs. Judges like precident; makes their jobs easier. Being able to dickswing about dancing games is not worth establishing a precident like this. |
No, no, no. There will be no doom and gloom. And already we have history to show us that "look and feel" and perhaps even a patent aren't enough to protect your idea. If Roxor wins this, we'll just be reminded of what we already know from movies, video games, music, TV and just about every other entertainment medium: anything that's good enough to rip off WILL be ripped off. Does that mean that the ripoffs will achieve the success and reach the quality of the original? No. Celebrity Mole is no Survivor, and I Know What You Did Last Summer was no Scream, and Columns is no Tetris. Are these legal? Sure. Are they great? Nah, and they weren't as successful as the originals either. And just like that, ITG is not the same quality product, nor will it be as successful as DDR is (although I am a fan of it).
And I leave you with this: anyone actually look at the court date? It's eons from now, in technology years. By that time, the case might be thrown out simply due to the fact that more copycats will appear in that time and the level of caring will drop. ITG 4 will probably be out by then, and DDR Extreme will be disappearing from arcades because it's well over four years old and everyone's bored of it. Either that, or Konami will have pulled their heads out of their Girlz Buttz and released a new arcade version. Now THAT would be something.
[/book]
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DDRNemesis
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Wolfman Jake
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| 43. Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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yyr, you forget again that Konami patented the specific gameplay mechanics as well, and amended those grievances to their lawsuit, which then brought in RedOctane as a "co-conspirator" with Roxor and Mad Katz as another infringing party. It's a double whammy of using Konami's hardware without permission and copying their gameplay ideas and mechanics that Roxor faces. Capcom might have won against Data East had they patented their specific innovationions in the "tournament fighter" genre of videogame, but they didn't. Konami DID do their homework, however, which is why Roxor's chances are somewhere far below Michael Jackson rebuilding his career and just above "snowball in hell."
See, people, things begin adding up, which is why this countersuit just seems all the more laughable and rediculous in a string of bad decisions on Roxor's part, regardless of who specifically made which ones at which junctures. They should have designed a game that doesn't overlap with DDR's patented gameply mechanics. They should have housed it in their OWN cabinets. They also should learn to keep their stories straight. How many lies have we been told at this point? The official line from Roxor up through ITG's development and release was always "everything is legally cleared with Konami." Well, that's obviously untrue. Then it was "Well, we went to Konami and they said no." Ok, so they at one point knew they had to square things away with Konami, but they decided to go ahead anyway since Konami said no. But now the story is "we have every right to, Konami's legal protection for their intellectual property is invalid?" So why did you ever ask them in the first place if you thought you were always in the right, or did that ever happen?
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yyr
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| 44. Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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| DDRNemesis wrote: | | Even if Konami did release a new arcade game they wouldn't release it for America. And Konami would make no profit whatsoever from a new arcade mix. Because you know what, ARCADES are practically DEAD. They live off prize games and fighting and racing games. |
The biggest earners in arcades around here are generally redemption games, games that use card-based saving systems (Derby Owners Club, Initial D), and DDR. And they're not quite dead. Plenty of people still frequent them despite the fact that there's so little new content any more.
But the arcade vs. home thing is relevant because
| Wolfman Jake wrote: | | Konami patented the specific gameplay mechanics as well |
...as they pertain to Konami's arcade hardware. Remember how specific the patent is. Step on X, and Y happens within the game. At home, Konami's hardware is not being used...which means it should technically be outside of the patent's jurisdiction. RedOctane and Mad Catz have little to worry about IMHO, because as far as "look and feel" are concerned... yeah, the products they distribute may be considered ripoffs, but that's just too damn bad. See reference to old case above.
Put this together with the fact that Konami doesn't sell arcade DDR any more and you can reasonably assume that Konami has nothing to lose but their free advertising, which may or may not be linked to home game sales--but try proving it one way or the other.
Hi, I'm an arcade, or a distributor. I bought a DDR cabinet and an ITG kit. It was my choice to put the latter inside the former. I own the machine so I can do what I like with it, including these gold rims and this phat spoiler.
What is my point? I'm not trying to prove that Roxor will win this case. What I am trying to say is that they have a case, and a bigger one than some of you realize, and that this should be interesting as it unfolds.
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Thomas Hobbes
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| 45. Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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Dang, if I were the judge...
RoXoR, you must dismantle all boxors for your In The Groove franchise and give your code to Konami for destruction. You infringed on patents held by the respective party. Please pay all damages to Konami.
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Synaesthesia
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| 46. Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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I did, in fact, see the court date (Feb. 5th, 2007, IIRC), and I'm not entirely sure what to think right now. The reason for this is I don't know whether or not you can still settle your case after issuing counterclaims and so forth. In my mind, that's the most likely scenario (a settlement). If Roxor *really* wants to go through with this, I can't see a positive outcome for them. Here's the kicker: let's say Roxor wins the suit. You think Konami is just going to roll over, say "oh well," and go home? No, Konami can bankrupt Roxor if they really want to--that's what makes me think Konami isn't the bad guy out to kill their competitor (not initially, anyway), because they could've already killed Roxor. I'm sure there's more than one way, but the first way I can think of is by flooding Roxor with lawsuits, however frivolous they may be. Roxor has to answer each one, and that costs money; Roxor will run out of money long before Konami even breaks a sweat.
I guess Roxor really thinks they're going to save a lot of money by not settling the case, because that's basically the only thing they stand to achieve by winning the suit. Maybe Plaguefox & Co. like to live life on the edge, but I would've played it safe and just issued flat denials with no counter-claims (or better yet, settle the damn suit so that everyone can get what they want--money for Konami and a game for Roxor).
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Rancidfish
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| 47. Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Synaesthesia wrote: | | I guess Roxor really thinks they're going to save a lot of money by not settling the case, because that's basically the only thing they stand to achieve by winning the suit. Maybe Plaguefox & Co. like to live life on the edge, but I would've played it safe and just issued flat denials with no counter-claims (or better yet, settle the damn suit so that everyone can get what they want--money for Konami and a game for Roxor). |
They have to issue counter-claims. They ARE in violation of some of Konami's Patents. Therefore, just saying "Nuh-uh!" isn't going to cut it, legally. Instead, they're trying to say "Konami's patent doesn't count because of _____ patent laws" (which may be true? I don't know, they reference several, but I know little about law) and therefore they're in the clear.
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Wakka Lakka
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| 48. Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Synaesthesia wrote: | | I don't know whether or not you can still settle your case after issuing counterclaims and so forth. |
Both parties may still agree to a settlement. There may even be a settlement after one party is victorious in court because of the cost of the appeals process and length of time involved. Look at when the initial case is scheduled. Roxor will try to draw it out too, all the while selling Boxors, ITG2 cabinets, and PS2 discs. The lawyers can keep the thing going for a long, long time.
| Rancidfish wrote: | | Instead, they're trying to say "Konami's patent doesn't count because of _____ patent laws" (which may be true? I don't know, they reference several, but I know little about law) and therefore they're in the clear. |
What it boils down to is that the office which issues the patent doesn't really determine if a patent is worth anything, its up to the courts to decide if there is infringement or if the patent is even valid. In a case like this, it may be decided that ITG is not a violation of the patent (which is what Roxor is asking the judge to do) or even so far as to say the patent is invalid and should never have been issued. Of course the court may also say the patent is valid (in part or in whole) and that Roxor owes Konami money for infringement. |
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The Game II
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| 49. Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Wolfman Jake wrote: | | Uiru wrote: | Then there's the whole thing about blatantly lying to fans, to licensors, and to themselves about Konami actually giving the OK for their bullshit, but I suppose all 'businesses' lie to an extent. This one is just so small, though, you'd think that they wouldn't have room to be spouting bullshit when they're still trying to develop. Somebody at Roxor thought that ITG without Konami's consent would be a good idea, and that person should not hold any position of power within any company, ever, for he will drive it into the ground- as he is doing now. As I somehow doubt that anyone has been fired over this, you have your choice between determining Roxor an illegitimate business with no hope or future, able to turn a profit only by scamming ideas from other companies, or a business run by idiots, engineering their own destruction.
If Roxor wins this, all copyrights everywhere will become invalid and innovation will cease (some will argue it has already ceased) because all you have to do is steal your competitors' idea and then reference this case, saving millions in R&D and development costs. Judges like precident; makes their jobs easier. Being able to dickswing about dancing games is not worth establishing a precident like this. |
Uiru, that REALLY puts everyting about this in perspective. |
The quote from Uiru is something I've always wondered since ITG came into production; why we were told repeatedly that Konami was cool with it and then this happens. I'm sure if someone does a search on this forum, that it could be found.
--GCII
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DCUJer
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| 50. Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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I think the biggest and most interesting issue in this lawsuit is if the upgrading of exsisting and already purchased arcade machines by using software that is not intended for use in the machine is legal. Everyone is up in arms about the infringements that Roxor has made to the Konami patents. What has been only noted by a couple posters so far is that, in Roxor's eyes, they aren't messing with the patents at all because they did nothing to the pads and most other parts of the machine. They are saying that they provide software to stick in your DDR macine and visual material to stick on your DDR machine. They however are not messing with any of the internal mechanisms. This lies with the belief that once you have purchased a machine that you are free to use it as you please. I know from what I remember from my business law classes is this may or may not be true; it depends on how the judge sees it.
To give you an example of this would be to think about people doing different types of things to their cars; like replace them with non-stock parts. The parts don't change how the car works but it does effect how the car behaves. For years this practice was frowned upon by car companies and they would refuse any type of warranty work on a modified car due to the presence of something that changed the characteristics of the car. The car companies ultimatly lost this battle when taken to court. They were told that as long as a non-stock part wasn't the cause for the issue that required the work. However while it is legal to upgrade your own car i believe it would be entirely illegal for a company to take a make of car, upgrade it, rebrand it, then sell it for a profit without the car makers consent.
So the question that begs to be answered by this suit is whether or not it is legal for a business to purchase a machine for use in their arcade and then upgrade that machine with someone else's software and use that machine in their arcade. What I find interesting about this is that Konami is suing a company for making a game that can be played in their cab in the USA; yet they seem to not care that almost every cab that it is replacing is a directly pirated version of their game to begin with. So Konami is losing exactly nothing from the introduction of the ITG series when it is used in a DDR cab. The new ITG2 cabs MAY fall underneath these patent laws but I don't know enough about the inner workings of either cab to really know the answer to this. |
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Thomas Hobbes
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| 51. Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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They're losing an advertisement, basically. DDR is a franchise that exists in the United States through home versions. A DDR machine upgraded to ITG is one less advertisement for their home versions. No one besides the technical and hardcore freaks of music, dance or rhythm games know what In the Groove is. RoXoR knows this as well, that's why they've made In the Groove 2 cater to more people.
That's why a lot of touristy places have DDR. Those tourists are going to go home and think, "Wow, I saw this dancing game at [insert tourist location's arcade here] and it was pretty fun to play." They're then going to go to the game store and recognize the same name of the game and pick it up. Now that IS money to Konami's pockets.
If you upgrade a machine to ITG or ITG2, that's money out of Konami's pocket, as that advertisement ideal gets lost. However, RoXoR does sort of use that tactic too. Have you ever watched the demo for ITG2? Hehe. 
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Tsuri
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| 52. Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Uiru wrote: | I would be interested in a clarification of how, exactly, Konami has been willfully and unfairly trying to fuck around with ITG's sales, when Roxor has been stripping DDR cabinets left right and center to put their crap in. Surely suing your stupid ass for being retarded isn't a suable offence (even in America, one would hope).
Also, I got the impression that a lot of Roxor's response was them putting their hands over their ears and going "blah blah blah blah blah"... ended by "hay guys look we can sue too! *dig dig dig*".
Had they just said "fine here's your money, now let's just do our things with no more Boxors", they might have worked out an arrangement much like Pump. Now it seems like they're going to make it a whole shit ton worse for themselves. You cannot have no clue how copyright law works and expect to win against a massive corporation that has been protecting its patents for years.
Any response from RO and Mad Catz? As these two are actual legitimate businesses, I would expect a more sensible response.
~Uiru |
Actually Andamiro went against Konami multiple times.... so uh no... it didn't just happen like that - Andamiro actually won one court case... so if you thought they just fell over like bowling pins think again... hell when they won they even stuck it on their website... and we don't know what happened with the agreement since there are no existing documents from after the first one they won... so we can only assume what happened unless someone saved the documents (I'd like to know EXACTLY what happened)... but the fact that Konami didn't try to include Andamiro for In the Groove 2 says that there has been a settlement and Konami can't take them to court for it again...
Also you are forgetting these same DDR cabinets that are in the USA are exactly what killed off Konami's USA arcade division... arcades were importing instead of getting what Konami offered at the time since it was "cheaper" back then... now that vendors have all of the machines they have total control - thats the reason DDR machines are not cheap despite being so old.
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Thomas Hobbes
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| 53. Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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Andamiro only won a preliminary court hearing in Seoul, Korea, if I recall correctly. I think one of their agreements were to not release any documents about such case(s) to the public though.
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DeathRazor
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| 54. Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Goggles wrote: | Some idiot earlier asked, "So how is RoXor NOT a legitamate company?"
When you are a legitamate company, you use your own equipment. You don't use other companies ideas, let alone hardware and then call the finished product unique. It would be like a new car company taking a Toyota car, removing the shell, and putting on their own and calling it something else, then selling it to the public. They didn't put any research into car mechanics, they didn't craft their own parts, save for the shell of the car, they didn't even have to hire people that knew what they were doing for the sake of engines and other neccessary car parts. They just stripped an existing product and made it look different. Fact remains, it's the same product on the inside.
Let's face it. ITG is EXACTLY the same as DDR. Why is that such a hard concept? The arrow layout is the same, it has the same gameplay mechanics (step on arrows, life goes up, miss arrows, life goes down) and on top of that, THEY DIDN'T EVEN BOTHER TO MAKE THEIR OWN MACHINE UNTIL THEY MADE ENOUGH MONEY STEALING KONAMI'S MACHINES.
Additionally, freeze rolls , mines, and making the arrows scroll at an angle rather than paralell with the screen are not enough to make a game like this different. That is why we have this lawsuit in the first place. |
Thank you for calling me an idiot. First off, ITG is not the only game Roxor has made. Second, you're saying that people who modify cars don't run legitimate businesses?
I understand it is the same game. So what? Why can the games not coexist? Oh, I know why. Because fucking FANBOYS LIKE YOU RUIN IT FOR EVERYONE.
As for that last paragraph, those modifiers are there to make the game more fun/difficult. That is the only reason they are there.
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Edible Bondage Tape
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| 55. Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| dieKatze88 wrote: | Yeah well RoXor screwed up somewhere to piss Konami off so badly. But hey, what can we do.
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actualy DJ potatoe kept tellingkonami how infrenging ITG was untill they decided to go look and sue roxor and as much as DJ potatoe keps saying he wont get sued its only because he wont ever make neough money to be WORTH sueing i can guarentee if he isnt paying massive royaltiues to konami and he makes any real money he will get buried under a mountain of red tape
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Thomas Hobbes
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| 56. Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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| DeathRazor wrote: | | Goggles wrote: | Some idiot earlier asked, "So how is RoXor NOT a legitamate company?"
When you are a legitamate company, you use your own equipment. You don't use other companies ideas, let alone hardware and then call the finished product unique. It would be like a new car company taking a Toyota car, removing the shell, and putting on their own and calling it something else, then selling it to the public. They didn't put any research into car mechanics, they didn't craft their own parts, save for the shell of the car, they didn't even have to hire people that knew what they were doing for the sake of engines and other neccessary car parts. They just stripped an existing product and made it look different. Fact remains, it's the same product on the inside.
Let's face it. ITG is EXACTLY the same as DDR. Why is that such a hard concept? The arrow layout is the same, it has the same gameplay mechanics (step on arrows, life goes up, miss arrows, life goes down) and on top of that, THEY DIDN'T EVEN BOTHER TO MAKE THEIR OWN MACHINE UNTIL THEY MADE ENOUGH MONEY STEALING KONAMI'S MACHINES.
Additionally, freeze rolls , mines, and making the arrows scroll at an angle rather than paralell with the screen are not enough to make a game like this different. That is why we have this lawsuit in the first place. |
Thank you for calling me an idiot. First off, ITG is not the only game Roxor has made. Second, you're saying that people who modify cars don't run legitimate businesses?
I understand it is the same game. So what? Why can the games not coexist? Oh, I know why. Because fucking FANBOYS LIKE YOU RUIN IT FOR EVERYONE.
As for that last paragraph, those modifiers are there to make the game more fun/difficult. That is the only reason they are there. |
The games can't coexist because In the Groove is infringing on patents owned by Konami. Konami, obviously wants to stop this infringement on its own patents and its protecting its intellectual property.
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Wolfman Jake
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| 57. Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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Mods exist in ITG because they existed in StepMania too. ITG is StepMania with a custom skin and a few modifications to allow the dispaly of three-dimensional arrows. That's about the extent of the development that Roxor put into ITG, seriously. Now, here's another kicker to those who have missed this point. Roxor is NOT just selling ITG2 as a dedicated cabinet. It is still also offered and more often purchased as an ITG2 Boxor or an upgrade kit to apply to your ITG1 Boxor. This is just further evidence that Andamiro isn't backing Roxor whatsoever in their partnership beyond the production of the dedicated cabinet, because "Pump It Up" does not appear at all in the marquee, stickers, title screen, or anywhere else for the Boxor versions of ITG2, only for the dedicated cabinet version. Interesting, no?
And yyr, even if Konami's patents are as specific as you think, that might only put RedOctane and Mad Katz in the clear, because ITG still exists as an arcade game as well. One that in its first iteration cannot be played on anything but Konami's cabinet (and whose second iteration cannot be played in anything else other than Konami's cabinet if you don't buy Roxor's expensive dedicated cabinet) and whose instructions blatantly SHOW you a Konami DDR cabinet and give you a marquee and stickers that specifically FIT on a DDR cabinet (even over the Playsation memory card area. Does any other dance game have that?), etc. Andamiro is free to make a cabinet for their "Pump It Up" franchise as per their settlement with Konami as long as they pay royalties. That's probably why Pump It Up has to appear on the ITG2 dedicated cabinet and in game. Andamiro likely just sells the setup to Roxor and then looks the other way. That's my honest guess, and if you think about the fact that the ITG2 cabinet costs thousands of dollars MORE than an brand new Exceed 2 cabinet, it starts to make a lot of sense, i.e. Roxor is selling the unit at such a high price so that it covers money spent on Adamiro's own RD plus their royalties to Konami and can still turn a profit.
Also, has it ever really been substantiated that djPotato is the reason why Konami is going after Roxor and company? No. Honestly, do you think Konami didn't find out about ITG on their own, or wouldn't have otherwise? They have representatives from their North American division that frequent these message boards. Don't you think they would at least tell the parent company about the goings on? Geez.
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AceJay
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| 58. Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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[quote=gtc]Ruf[/quote]
Yeah, I was wondering, what's up with them, are they just modding Porsches?
And what about that Saleen Mustang?
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TCBCR.Toastercookie
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| 59. Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Mods exist in ITG because they existed in StepMania too |
It's actually the opposite of this. Almost all of the new mods for ITG and stuff like mines were developed specificlaly for ITG and then added to SM. ITG was in the works long before alot of people got wind of it.
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