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Ghetto Overlord
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Joined: 13 Jul 2004
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0.  Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 1:03 pm Post subject: Arcade/Home scoring. |
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So yeah, after insisting on not getting the home version due to the loading times, I caved in and have to say that I'm fairly impressed, mostly since the load times are bearable and I already had a good idea the product was pretty good.
So with that said, are the arcade and home windows for scoring similar? I was hoping I could compare my scores to those on GrooveStats and see how far I have to go to become a somebody. o.o
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Stan: Hey kid, you're pretty good. How would you like to join our dance troupe?
Yao: You mean, dancing without a machine telling you what to do?
Stan: Yeah.
Yao: That's stupid. [waves him off and walks away]
Stan: [catches up] Dude, we need you.
Yao: I can't dance without the machine. |
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[+Duracell-]
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Joined: 03 Sep 2004
Location: Maumee, Ohio |
| 1. Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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The timing windows are the same between home and arcade, so scores are comparable.
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tac-tics
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Joined: 01 Jun 2003
Location: Probably playing DDR |
| 2. Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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I don't see why everyone doggy about the load times. Just because there's no background movement or spinning hourglass icon doesn't mean the waits compromise the game. The load times are perfectly acceptable.
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Ghetto Overlord
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Joined: 13 Jul 2004
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| 3. Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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| [+Duracell-] wrote: | | The timing windows are the same between home and arcade, so scores are comparable. |
Thank you much times. May Korea Gods shine upon with much dance skill.
| tac-tics (who can't PA) wrote: | | I don't see why everyone doggy about the load times. Just because there's no background movement or spinning hourglass icon doesn't mean the waits compromise the game. The load times are perfectly acceptable. |
Compared to DDR, it ain't. o.o
_________________
Stan: Hey kid, you're pretty good. How would you like to join our dance troupe?
Yao: You mean, dancing without a machine telling you what to do?
Stan: Yeah.
Yao: That's stupid. [waves him off and walks away]
Stan: [catches up] Dude, we need you.
Yao: I can't dance without the machine. |
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tac-tics
Trick Member
Joined: 01 Jun 2003
Location: Probably playing DDR |
| 4. Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Ghetto Overlord wrote: | | tac-tics (who can't PA) wrote: | | I don't see why everyone doggy about the load times. Just because there's no background movement or spinning hourglass icon doesn't mean the waits compromise the game. The load times are perfectly acceptable. |
Compared to DDR, it ain't. o.o |
You have to take into consideration what is loading as well as how long it takes to load.
DDR's homemixes are notoriously low-quality recordings of songs that get crappier every mix X-[
I think videogames have made this generation impatient =-P
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DJTyrant
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Joined: 25 Jan 2002
Location: Ventura, CA |
| 5. Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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I'd rather have some load times than choppy gameplay.
You take what you can get 
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Brick Tamland(LoveRevenG)
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Location: NC |
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Ghetto Overlord
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Joined: 13 Jul 2004
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| 7. Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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| tac-tics (who can't PA) wrote: | | Ghetto Overlord wrote: | | tac-tics (who can't PA) wrote: | | I don't see why everyone doggy about the load times. Just because there's no background movement or spinning hourglass icon doesn't mean the waits compromise the game. The load times are perfectly acceptable. |
Compared to DDR, it ain't. o.o |
You have to take into consideration what is loading as well as how long it takes to load.
DDR's homemixes are notoriously low-quality recordings of songs that get crappier every mix X-[
I think videogames have made this generation impatient =-P |
Two things:
1) Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas is a beautiful example of a game coded correctly. After an initial loading of about half a minute when you turn the game on, there are absolutely no load times whatsoever (save for functions involving the memory card). A game that shouldn't be nearly as taxing on a Playstation 3, and is a member of a genre that has to load a song (forget the fact that San Andreas allows you to "listen to radio stations" with no interruption) and a step chart, and is leaps and bounds behind a game that to load entire virtual cities on the fly. RoxoR did a poopy coding job and the game should have been pushed back until it was fixed.
2) The load times wouldn't be so bad if there were a way to play songs in event mode without having to go back to the main menu every time you failed. This makes situations such as attempting to pass a very difficult song frustrating if you have to wait a minute or so for every time you wanted to play again? This would be like if you were trying to beat a very difficult computer opponent in the Madden and it took you ten minutes to go back into playing a twenty minute game.
If you want to convince the casual gamer who is interested in the rhythm genre to make a purchase of In the Groove over the Dance Dance Revolution (whose name is synonymous with dance gaming), you'd better make sure that not only your gameplay is solid (which, credit to Roxor, is), but that your production values are equally superior, and word of mouth will eventually help turn it into a serious competitor for DDR's throne. If you're going to tell me that an eight or nine year-old girl or boy is going to sit through the annoying process of having to take up their sweet time every time they fail the easiest song they've been attempting to pass, you can bet they're going to go put another game in the system or go watch some television.
To reiterate: In the Groove's gameplay, at least for experienced players, is very good. I wouldn't put it on the same level as Dance Dance Revolution's, but it's a viable alternative. And given the capability of developers to nearly eliminate load times with the Playstation's hardware, there's no reason that a company shouldn't be able to do something for an arcade rhythm game.
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Stan: Hey kid, you're pretty good. How would you like to join our dance troupe?
Yao: You mean, dancing without a machine telling you what to do?
Stan: Yeah.
Yao: That's stupid. [waves him off and walks away]
Stan: [catches up] Dude, we need you.
Yao: I can't dance without the machine. |
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Wolfman Jake
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Joined: 13 Sep 2002
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| 8. Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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The load times are completely unacceptable, and if you continue to say otherwise just because of blind loyalty to ITG, then there will not be a big incentive for Roxor and RO to get it right the next time. Load times are only ONE of the flaws in the home version, too. The name entry system needs to be reprogrammed. There is no reason that I should have to first play a limited set (non-event mode) and beat a high score to get my name entered and then switch to event mode just so that my high scores in event mode are not entered as "EVNT." Furthermore, there is no reason I should have to do so every time I boot the game. The game doesn't autosave if you exit Event Mode from the song select, only after failing a stage. Also, failing a stage in Event Mode returns you to the main menu, not the song wheel.
To whomever above claimed that DDR just uses poor quality recordings, yeah, try playing a PS2 mix  DDR EX US especially has crystal clear music. ITG for PS2 was just very poorly programmed; that's why the load times are so long.
Seriously, I think Ultramix 2 is the best DDR (and dance game) available for home consoles currently, but I can still admit that it's got issues: framerate problems, Perfect windows too wide, etc. Don't gloss over issues with ITG PS2, unless you want the same mistakes to crop up in subsequent versions.
Oh, and FYI, the home version of ITG does add a "fudge factor" to all of the judgment windows, apparantly to compensate for the difference in responsiveness between home pads and the arcade pads. The home pads are apparantly less responsive, so the fudge factor increases all of the judgment windows very slightly. It shouldn't be enough to really invalidate a comparison of arcade and CS scores, though.
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Kyrandian
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Joined: 24 Mar 2002
Location: Portland, OR |
| 9. Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Wolfman Jake wrote: | | Oh, and FYI, the home version of ITG does add a "fudge factor" to all of the judgment windows, apparantly to compensate for the difference in responsiveness between home pads and the arcade pads. The home pads are apparantly less responsive, so the fudge factor increases all of the judgment windows very slightly. It shouldn't be enough to really invalidate a comparison of arcade and CS scores, though. |
Source? The ini file I ripped off the disk matches the arcade timing windows. |
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Wolfman Jake
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Joined: 13 Sep 2002
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| 10. Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Kyrandian wrote: | | Wolfman Jake wrote: | | Oh, and FYI, the home version of ITG does add a "fudge factor" to all of the judgment windows, apparantly to compensate for the difference in responsiveness between home pads and the arcade pads. The home pads are apparantly less responsive, so the fudge factor increases all of the judgment windows very slightly. It shouldn't be enough to really invalidate a comparison of arcade and CS scores, though. |
Source? The ini file I ripped off the disk matches the arcade timing windows. |
Look at the line "JudgeWindowAdd=X.XXXXXX." I'd have to dig up the original explanation from the ITGFreak boards.
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Wolfman Jake |
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Wolfman Jake
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Joined: 13 Sep 2002
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| 11. Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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My apologies in advance for the double post, but the boards seem to be bugging out, preventing me from editing my posts. The information on the ITG CS judgment window changes can be found here.
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Wolfman Jake |
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arnoct
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Joined: 11 Nov 2003
Location: Oshawa, Ontario, Canada |
| 12. Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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While ITG does have issues with some things (loading times, name entry, a bug or two,) in other respects it's miles above DDR in its presentation. ITG features fully 3D arrows; no framerate problems (unless you're a jackass about mods); DVD-quality backgrounds; crystal clear sounds, even in the preview music (ultramix 2 has downsampled the music from the previews, it's hard to hear but it's noticeable;) innovative mods; awesome marathon courses that keep you on your toes; and--best of all--a difficulty scale that appeals to everyone from the super-n00b to the dancing game god. While it isn't perfect, it breathes life into the otherwise stale DDR games--after playing ITG for awhile, I'm going to find it hard to go back to playing Ultramix 2 and Extreme US.
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/#bemani on irc.dynastynet.net -- talk about bemani stuff. |
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Wolfman Jake
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Joined: 13 Sep 2002
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| 13. Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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| arnoct wrote: | | While ITG does have issues with some things (loading times, name entry, a bug or two,) in other respects it's miles above DDR in its presentation. ITG features fully 3D arrows; no framerate problems (unless you're a jackass about mods); DVD-quality backgrounds; crystal clear sounds, even in the preview music (ultramix 2 has downsampled the music from the previews, it's hard to hear but it's noticeable;) innovative mods; awesome marathon courses that keep you on your toes; and--best of all--a difficulty scale that appeals to everyone from the super-n00b to the dancing game god. While it isn't perfect, it breathes life into the otherwise stale DDR games--after playing ITG for awhile, I'm going to find it hard to go back to playing Ultramix 2 and Extreme US. |
Uh, I think ITG has a LONG way to go in terms of presentation. Seriously, DDR is still miles ahead in the way of presentation, style, and production values. 3D arrows is about the only thing the ITG interface has going for it. Otherwise, it's functional but completely unimaginative and bland. And ITG PS2 does have framerate issues, even with no mods active. I'd say it's on par with the issues I have with UM2's framerate (which is to say not a lot, but you do notice hicups if you pay attention).
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Wolfman Jake |
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PedanticOmbudsman
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Joined: 07 Jan 2005
Location: Fayetteville, AR |
| 14. Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 5:25 am Post subject: |
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| Wolfman Jake wrote: | | Seriously, DDR is still miles behind in the way of presentation, style, and production values. |
Fixed. |
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Wolfman Jake
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Joined: 13 Sep 2002
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| 15. Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 6:30 am Post subject: |
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| PedanticOmbudsman wrote: | | Wolfman Jake wrote: | | Seriously, DDR is still miles behind in the way of presentation, style, and production values. |
Fixed. |
The fact that you resort to the tired "fixed" trick and completely fail to actually counterpoint any of the substance of my post just makes it all the more obvious that your opinion is based on a paranoid loyalty to ITG, as if an admission of any part of its design or execution as inferior to the very franchise that made its existance possible would suddenly make it vanish from the earth. If you're capable of putting aside your petty insecurities for a few moments so that you might take a critical eye to your beloved arrow stomping videogame, you might be able to appreciate that ITG has a long way to go in terms of fleshing out a very asthetically appealing and exciting grahpical interface, the likes of which DDR has enjoyed for years. Everything about it is very utilitarian. It gets the job done, but it does so with little flare or style. The colors are rather muted and dull. The shapes are unispired, looking flat and without apparant depth. All edges are rounded, which detracts from the variety of the overall look. The font especially needs a huge overhaul. They should develop something unique, something that can be ITG's font type, or at least use a variety of different font types to diversify the look. The in-song HUD is especially dull. If you want to see an HUD of the same type (minimalistic overlay with tranparancy) done right, look no further than EX US/EX2/UM2. Yes, seriously. See if you can find some of the early prototype images for ITG; it had a much more interesting and unique style back then. It's too bad they didn't expand on those earlier ideas, they probably would have turned out to be much more interesting.
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Wolfman Jake |
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J. S. Mill
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Joined: 28 Apr 2003
Location: New York, New York |
| 16. Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 7:31 am Post subject: |
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Jake as much you know I would love to debate you on this point, please stay on topic. The question was about home scoring versus arcade scoring, not about the quality of the home mix.
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tortoise
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Joined: 24 Jan 2002
Location: ex Iowan now in WV |
| 17. Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 7:31 am Post subject: |
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| tac-tics (who can't PA) wrote: |
You have to take into consideration what is loading as well as how long it takes to load. |
Well, considering that in fitness mode there is no load time at all -- it immediately moves into the next song -- the load times in arcade mode are quite suspect.
And load times are quite relevant. I play ITG as one of my means of exercise. I would love to be able to pick what song I do, but the load times mean too much waiting around and heart rate dropping. I just do endless in fitness mode. |
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Wolfman Jake
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Joined: 13 Sep 2002
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| 18. Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 7:39 am Post subject: |
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| ChrisFoy.Kiba wrote: | | Jake as much you know I would love to debate you on this point, please stay on topic. The question was about home scoring versus arcade scoring, not about the quality of the home mix. |
With all due respect, I'm hardly the person who derailed the initial topic. Secondly, the question was answered, by me, quite a while back. I don't think their is much of anything more to say on the topic of Arcade versus Home judgment windows and scoring for ITG. The answers are all in the first few posts.
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Wolfman Jake |
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J. S. Mill
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Joined: 28 Apr 2003
Location: New York, New York |
| 19. Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 9:43 am Post subject: |
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| Wolfman Jake wrote: | | With all due respect, I'm hardly the person who derailed the initial topic. |
All right, point well taken. Topic locked to prevent massive outbreak of U UZ BAR I TEH H8 J00!
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