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yyr
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Joined: 07 Mar 2002
Location: White Plains, NY |
100.  Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 7:54 am Post subject: Re: Abandonware |
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| Catastrophe wrote: | | But you can't blame them for wanting to take time off of DDR. It's hasn't even been that long of a break yet. |
Nobody took time off from DDR. KCET creates both the arcade and home versions. They're actually doing more than they used to; instead of simultaneously producing arcade and PS1 versions, they're doing three different PS2 versions at once. (And recall also that the arcade and PS1 hardware are virtually the same, so it's a good comparison.) My guess is that the arcade version of DS Fusion took minimal work to complete, and that they could have done "Extreme 2" in an arcade cabinet if they so chose, adding new content from Extreme PS2/Party Collection/Festival while preserving most of the existing Extreme. They simply chose not to.
| Wolfman Jake wrote: | | Naoki probably wants to do, you know, something else for a bit other than manage and write most of the songs for yet ANOTHER DDR game. |
They've saved up enough KOs these last few years that they'd have no problem releasing a new arcade DDR. Heck, DDR itself has seen many of these in recent home versions. Pop'n and IIDX alone could provide enough new crossovers to at least match the number of "new" songs in Extreme; add KCEH songs and it would be even easier. The songs are there already!
I won't try to debate that RoXoR did something wrong, but maybe there wouldn't be such an anti-Konami bandwagon gathering if Konami had given the players what they wanted...ALL of the players, not just potential new ones.
Joint Premium is NOT a good decision for an arcade to make because it makes Versus cost 1 credit. There is unfortunately no way to make Versus cost 2 and Double cost 1. These days, with arcades doing poorly as it is, modes that use both sides of the machine should cost 2 credits.
That said, in most places you're still paying only $2 for up to 10 minutes of entertainment, which isn't all that bad these days. Bowling's quite a bit more expensive. And what about other arcade games? Ask anyone who plays Derby Owners Club or Initial D how much they've paid for those games, and people who suck at light-gun shooters could sink way more than $2 into one in less than 10 minutes. People regularly pay $2 for SINGLE in many places, and Double brings bigger crowds anyway. Oh yeah, and it's fun as hell. I'd recommend it to anybody.
Uiru, play all of ITG's Hard steps, then tell me with a straight face that they didn't care about them...
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ColorOfSakura
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Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Location: The user formerly known as Zajitarrius |
| 101. Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 8:23 am Post subject: |
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| CubsWoo wrote: |
I think, in the end, a Konami/RoXoR partnership would really benefit everyone. Konami gives RoXoR (now Konami Texas, or whatever) access to the entire Bemani library for a new game, uses the broader name recognition of Konami to better market both an arcade and home version, and gets an assload of profit bringing "DDR 9th Mix (In The Groove)" to the world market. And the people at RoXoR get to continue making a dance game for the hardcore. Maybe have KoJ make the Light-Heavy steps and leave RoXoR to do the Expert ones. |
Well, in essence you'd have a threeway partnership there. Because the arcade version would still have to be produced by Andamiro, if people wanted new cabinets (as Konami's arcade division is shut down). And then the home version would be Konami.
I mean, since Andamiro is only affilated with production of the arcade game, and Konami is only affilated with production of the home game, you'd either end up with both companies pulling away from RoXoR for helping out their competition or even if they did agree to help, you'd have to come up with either a mass title or two seperate titles for the games. Unless the arcade versions weren't made into home versions.
Because otherwise you'd end up with this situation:
Arcade: Pump It Up - In The Groove!
Home: Dance Dance Revolution - In The Groove!
Or it'd become this:
Dance Dance Revolution: Pump It Up In The Groove!
Talk about a merger.
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CubsWoo
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Joined: 20 Jan 2003
Location: St. Charles, IL |
| 102. Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 8:37 am Post subject: |
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| Uiru wrote: | | 'Cause God knows that's all Roxor really cares about. |
If you play steps below Expert, you can tell pretty easily that RoXoR designed the game top-down. That is, spend 2-3 weeks on the Expert steps and throw together some random arrow patterns for everything below. They're, in general, a collection of almost-but-not-quite Long Version songs that are either boring as hell or some bad attempt at karaoke steps.
Konami is better at giving the casual-intermediate group challenging/fun step charts, and RoXoR is better at catering to the DICKSWING-GET crowd. You switch it over and Anubis is an 8, maybe a 9 on DDR and RoXoR probably gives bag a 12-measure 64th note death run and a handful of mines to boot. |
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Char
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Joined: 30 Apr 2004
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| 103. Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 8:53 am Post subject: |
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| CubsWoo wrote: |
If you play steps below Expert, you can tell pretty easily that RoXoR designed the game top-down. . |
Actually, that's wrong. RoXoR didn't even plan to have expert mode when ITG was in development. It was added as an afterthought halfway through development. |
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Wolfman Jake
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Joined: 13 Sep 2002
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| 104. Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 9:08 am Post subject: |
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Not all of the ITG1 Hard steps are terrible, but as a collective whole, they are far less interesting, and far less involved than DDR Heavy steps. What they seriously lack is any kind of tech. Very few Hard songs involve turning or spinning at all. It was very noticable as I first started playing ITG PS2. I started playing through everything on Hard to unlock all the extras, and noticed by the end of an hour and a half session that I was hardly sweating at all, whereas by the same point in a typical DDR run (and no, I don't whore out all 10's the whole time), I'd be drenched. It's because you "have to" turn a whole lot more in DDR's Heavy steps. The Easy and Medium steps in ITG are just boring, period. Not to say that Light and Standard are exciting in DDR any longer, either. However, DDR songs tend to be shorter and far less prone to huge repeats of patterns, set to huge repeats of the music. Longer cuts may be great for a Hard or Expert chart, but for an Easy or Medium chart, it just drags, especially for songs that exceed the 2 minute mark. Expert steps more often involve some turning in ITG1, but not as much as I would like. More focus on tech and less on speed (long 1/16th note runs get stale fast) would impress me much more. Yes, mines count as tech too, but even they are more often under utilized than not. In many songs, mines are just thrown in for no reason, being either rediculously easy to see coming up and then avoid, or placed such that you avoid them just by stepping on the correct arrows anyway. Supposedly, a lot of these problems have been addressed in ITG2, but I don't have access to a machine yet, so I can't comment on how valid those claims are yet. Basically, if you were to put the difficulty levels of ITG and DDR together into some kind of hierarchy of a combination of skill requirement and fun, I think it would go something like:
Easy < Light < Medium < Standard < Hard < Heavy < Expert
Essentially, I see the DDR difficulties as falling in between the ITG ones. Heavy brings in the fun factor big time in DDR, IMO, while Expert obviously brings in the skill factor above much of DDR's Heavy offerings, though again its skill based mostly on foot speed and stamina (with a smattering of mine avoiding skill).
While were on the subject, what is the deal with people and double-stepping? I often see people praising ITG for "not forcing you to double-step," as if double-stepping were somehow sinful. I see proper double-stepping as just another technique to master in dance gaming, something that adds more variety to the overall routine. It takes skill to know when to do it (i.e. don't double step when you could more easily turn and cross-over), and how to do it well so as to keep on the beat and get those Perfects/Marvelouses/Excellents/Fantastics/Whatever. What's wrong with that?
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Char
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Joined: 30 Apr 2004
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| 105. Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 9:37 am Post subject: |
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| Wolfman Jake wrote: | | What's wrong with that? |
EOTC is what's wrong with that. |
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Wolfman Jake
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Shadow_65
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Joined: 04 Jan 2004
Location: Saturn |
| 107. Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 9:47 am Post subject: |
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| PedanticOmbudsman wrote: | I've already boycotted Konami home products because of the lawsuit (and microwaved the ones I already owned), and the only reason I don't boycott arcade DDR is because all the machines are bootlegs anyway. But I'll again be encouraging the arcade owners I know to upgrade away from DDR, because it makes me ill to see the Konami logo in an arcade, even if the machines are all bootlegs.
Konami's #2 on my "evil companies" list right now, right behind SCO at #1. Incredibly, Microsoft's dropped all the way down to #7 over the past few years... it's amazing how times are changed. |
Finally... a reason to be glad your local arcade has Megamix 
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DDRNemesis
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Joined: 10 Jun 2004
Location: Bryan, OH |
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CubsWoo
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Joined: 20 Jan 2003
Location: St. Charles, IL |
| 109. Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 10:03 am Post subject: |
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| Char wrote: | | CubsWoo wrote: |
If you play steps below Expert, you can tell pretty easily that RoXoR designed the game top-down. . |
Actually, that's wrong. RoXoR didn't even plan to have expert mode when ITG was in development. It was added as an afterthought halfway through development. |
It was the best afterthought ever, then, because if they had released ITG without Expert mode, nobody would play it. It'd just be another DDR clone with worse stepcharts and longer songs. |
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Ghettoman-DDR
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Joined: 01 Feb 2005
Location: New York, New York |
| 110. Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 10:11 am Post subject: |
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| Darkforce wrote: | The thing is I myself wouldn't care much about this lawsuit against Roxor, IF KONAMI ACTUALLY MADE SOME DECENT DDR GAMES! Konami have had years to capture our hearts and keep us interested in their games but they've just been sooo dam lazy... hello, a new arcade release for the US anywhen? Maybe increase the availability of legal upgrade kits? And then DS Fusion (the most recent AC release) was one massive step backwards for the genre..., but to make things worse I can't even play EM2 anyone because most of the machines have been replaced with Fusion cabinets... Roxor isn't hurting Konami's profits, Konami's kicking itself in the crotch.
If Konami spent even half half the time they've spent on these lawsuits improving the quality of the DDR franchise, they wouldn't need to be chasing down Roxor or whoever because our money would be going into Konami pockets instead.
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You are right about one thing and forgot about something else...
Yes.. I will admit Konami DDR series are getting very bland but you also need to know is that they are also working on their other titles which is owned by konami and due to this crazy bluff that xbox said about their new compatability system for the other systems the ppl are a bit concerned about that.
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Halo_addict
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Joined: 21 Jul 2003
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| 111. Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 10:20 am Post subject: |
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I would like to point out an interesting parallel that has pretty much gone unnoticed:
Didn't Mrs. Pacman origionate from some group of programmers from MIT or something as a kind of "boxor" for Pacman cabinets? I don't remember if Namco sued or not, but I'm pretty sure they ended up buying it outright eventually.
Of course, I really don't think konami would buy Roxor or anybody, but it is a very similar case. |
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yyr
Trick Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2002
Location: White Plains, NY |
| 112. Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 11:29 am Post subject: |
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| CubsWoo wrote: | | Char wrote: | | CubsWoo wrote: |
If you play steps below Expert, you can tell pretty easily that RoXoR designed the game top-down. . |
Actually, that's wrong. RoXoR didn't even plan to have expert mode when ITG was in development. It was added as an afterthought halfway through development. |
It was the best afterthought ever, then, because if they had released ITG without Expert mode, nobody would play it. It'd just be another DDR clone with worse stepcharts and longer songs. |
I know I'm not the only one enjoying the Hard stepcharts. I've barely touched Expert, and yet I've enjoyed the game for hours. Maybe you should actually play them before knocking them. I mean, it's not like 100% of them are good, but there are a lot of good ones in there. Try Torn, Bend Your Mind and Tell for starters.
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Edible Bondage Tape
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Joined: 26 Jan 2002
Location: Kerri |
| 113. Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 11:43 am Post subject: |
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| Halo_addict wrote: | I would like to point out an interesting parallel that has pretty much gone unnoticed:
Didn't Mrs. Pacman origionate from some group of programmers from MIT or something as a kind of "boxor" for Pacman cabinets? I don't remember if Namco sued or not, but I'm pretty sure they ended up buying it outright eventually.
Of course, I really don't think konami would buy Roxor or anybody, but it is a very similar case. |
they dint actualy sell it was upgrades though they put int in an inschool machine and work inda got out so they got hired
now about a deacde or so ago some one did something with a capcom games (making chibi characters) capcoms responce was to tell the person that they were very skilled and bar them form employment for unlicensed use of IP
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Char
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Joined: 30 Apr 2004
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| 114. Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 11:44 am Post subject: |
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| yyr wrote: | | I know I'm not the only one enjoying the Hard stepcharts. I've barely touched Expert, and yet I've enjoyed the game for hours. Maybe you should actually play them before knocking them. . |
Agreeing with this. I play Hard all the time, and Easy/Medium via marathon. Where are these boring charts everyone talks about? I've only found a couple. I found way more in DDREX. |
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Coolkid27
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Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Location: Schnecksville, PA |
| 115. Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 11:51 am Post subject: |
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My opinion:
Overall, I think ITG's hard steps use less spins or other moves that force you to look at the screen other than head on.
however, if you play through a song on hard long enough, you can find some spins and other areas to step differently....but these may be more forced than while playing a DDR song on heavy. |
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Thunderbird
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Joined: 21 Oct 2002
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| 116. Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 12:12 pm Post subject: Re: Abandonware |
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| yyr wrote: | | Joint Premium is NOT a good decision for an arcade to make because it makes Versus cost 1 credit. There is unfortunately no way to make Versus cost 2 and Double cost 1. These days, with arcades doing poorly as it is, modes that use both sides of the machine should cost 2 credits. |
Technically, all modes use both sides of the machine. Because when Single is active, the other side can't be used until the active game is over. This wasn't the case in the early DDRs, but I'm pretty sure it's been that way since 4th Mix, and probably earlier. |
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heavymaniac
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Joined: 27 Jun 2005
Location: MI |
| 117. Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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Ahahaha! Yes! Finally MadCatz is getting screwed! They are the devil of dance dance...and now they will lose all their money from they're crappy counsle products.
ohh...how I hate Madcatz |
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Uiru
Contributor
Joined: 25 Sep 2003
Location: the floating castle of Newfoundland |
| 118. Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Wolfman Jake wrote: | | Char wrote: | | Wolfman Jake wrote: | | What's wrong with that? |
EOTC is what's wrong with that. |
That's an extreme case. I can't think of any other DDR song off the top of my head that forces double-stepping to that extent. Even so, a lot of people love EOTC for that very reason. I'm sure you know what I am talking about in terms of parts of charts in which double-stepping works very well, so you might want to turn the smarmy down a bit ;) |
Healing Vision (Angelic Mix).
Of course, I don't even really mind Angelic Mix's doublestepping bullshit... lately I've been whoring the song on ye olde MP3 player, and it seems to me that the frenzied panicking smashing to a heart monitor flatlining makes perfect sense.
I can't really explain EotC, though. :D I just did what people should have been doing since forever and made better steps myself. My version has gallops in it. :D Either way, though, I love the song. Also brings great reactions from the uninitiated who happen to be near the machine at the time.
~Uiru
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cfusionpm
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Joined: 24 Jan 2002
Location: San Diego, CA |
| 119. Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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| yyr wrote: | | CubsWoo wrote: | | Char wrote: | | CubsWoo wrote: |
If you play steps below Expert, you can tell pretty easily that RoXoR designed the game top-down. . |
Actually, that's wrong. RoXoR didn't even plan to have expert mode when ITG was in development. It was added as an afterthought halfway through development. |
It was the best afterthought ever, then, because if they had released ITG without Expert mode, nobody would play it. It'd just be another DDR clone with worse stepcharts and longer songs. |
I know I'm not the only one enjoying the Hard stepcharts. I've barely touched Expert, and yet I've enjoyed the game for hours. Maybe you should actually play them before knocking them. I mean, it's not like 100% of them are good, but there are a lot of good ones in there. Try Torn, Bend Your Mind and Tell for starters. |
yes, there are a small handful of kind of fun hard mode stepcharts. but as just about everyone else has said, the vast majority of them are boring, repetetive, and well, just not that fun.
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