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MeltyKiss
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Joined: 26 Jan 2002
Location: NorCal Bay Area |
0.  Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 11:32 pm Post subject: Konami Submits an Amended Version of Its Lawsuit |
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Konami filed an amended version of its lawsuit against Roxor (on July 1st), but this time they have also included Red Octane (publisher of ITG/PS2) and Mad Catz (maker of MC GROOVZ danceCRAZE).
Like the other lawsuit, this one is also because of "infringement of Konami's patent rights in its Dance Dance Revolution® arcade game."
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BAZOOKABEN
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Joined: 04 Sep 2003
Location: Boone, (ASU) |
| 1. Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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blah speculation blah I don't know anything about copyrights blah I'm just a 15 year old with acne problems acting like I'm a lawyer blah speculation
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'Ivan
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Joined: 01 Aug 2004
Location: Thailand |
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Cyantre
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Joined: 01 Dec 2002
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| 3. Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 11:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Though perhaps untimely, Konami is well within their rights with this lawsuit. ITG is basically a suped-up version of DDR. It doesn't matter if you think that ITG is better or worse then DDR. The idea of four arrows on the top of the screen; left, down, up, right, with corresponding arrows that rise to the top of the screen in accordance with the rhythm and beat of a song is a concept created by Konami called Dance Dance Revolution. PIU is at least different even though it's sort-of the same thing. Super Mario Bros. and Mega Man are both side-scrollers but they're not knocks off each other. A DDR cabinet can run ITG, a DDR cabinet can't run PIU. Even if the arcade division of Konami isn't active, Konami as a company is. |
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Thomas Hobbes
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Joined: 20 Aug 2002
Location: San Francisco // NorCal |
| 4. Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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There is also a thread where you can discuss this as well, if need be. The thread can be found here.
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Uiru
Contributor
Joined: 25 Sep 2003
Location: the floating castle of Newfoundland |
| 5. Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 12:55 am Post subject: |
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Ahahahahahahahahahahaha!
The plot thickens. :) Will Andamiro be next, again, because of their support with ITG2?
And on that topic, does Konami indirectly make money off the ITG2 cabinets, since Andamiro made them?
~Uiru
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Wolfman Jake
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Julie QQQ...?
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Joined: 07 Jun 2002
Location: Boston, MA |
| 7. Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 1:11 am Post subject: |
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| *hides behind a bush as fanboys on all sides prepare to rewield their weapons* |
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Bunnymoon
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Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Location: NODNOL, CANADA |
| 8. Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 1:42 am Post subject: |
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Why did PIU have to be released in August. It increases the chance that it will never be released here.
This of course was bound to happen. With all these alliances going on around konami, it was obvious what was going to happen. Konami is releasing several dance related games, competition means less money. The more they can stall other companies games, they figure people will get tired waiting for these PIU and other non Konami dance games, and take the DDR/KONAMI wagon.
Its kinda sad, the fact that they dont have faith in their own games survival against competition. I think if they put more effort in the games, and less in the lawsuits. Of course thats my opinion. Im sure others feel the opposite, but thats just my two cents.
Watch out they might try prosecuting individual people who make custom dance pads for personal use and for profit to make an example.(Unlikely... But possible) |
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Char
Trick Member
Joined: 30 Apr 2004
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| 9. Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 2:04 am Post subject: |
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| Cyantre wrote: | | Though perhaps untimely, Konami is well within their rights with this lawsuit. ITG is basically a suped-up version of DDR. It doesn't matter if you think that ITG is better or worse then DDR. The idea of four arrows on the top of the screen; left, down, up, right, with corresponding arrows that rise to the top of the screen in accordance with the rhythm and beat of a song is a concept created by Konami called Dance Dance Revolution. PIU is at least different even though it's sort-of the same thing. Super Mario Bros. and Mega Man are both side-scrollers but they're not knocks off each other. A DDR cabinet can run ITG, a DDR cabinet can't run PIU. Even if the arcade division of Konami isn't active, Konami as a company is. |
Sorry, someone already made this post:
| BAZOOKABEN wrote: | | blah speculation blah I don't know anything about copyrights blah I'm just a 15 year old with acne problems acting like I'm a lawyer blah speculation |
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Saigo
Trick Member
Joined: 23 Jun 2005
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| 10. Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:28 am Post subject: |
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someone explain to me please..
how can you have a dancing game style genre, when the originators are not allowing other versions??
ooh, 3 games equals genre??
DDR
PIU
TechnoMotion (even if it is the first two combined..)
I think Konami is just filling these things to lighten the budget, perhaps in slight debt? like everyone 
maybe you can only make dancing games with certain number or arrows..
NEW DANCING GAME
HARDCORE Break Dancer Extended Mix 18.5! NEW WITH 7 arrows, 32 handplant censors, and a free expresso machine...
hype hype caffination.. |
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moojoe
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Joined: 14 Aug 2002
Location: merion, pa |
| 11. Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 6:12 am Post subject: |
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| Uiru wrote: | Ahahahahahahahahahahaha!
The plot thickens.  Will Andamiro be next, again, because of their support with ITG2?
And on that topic, does Konami indirectly make money off the ITG2 cabinets, since Andamiro made them?
~Uiru |
konami cant sue Andamiro, Andamiro essentially pays Konami not to be sued.
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PedanticOmbudsman
Trick Member
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
Location: Fayetteville, AR |
| 12. Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 6:40 am Post subject: |
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I've already boycotted Konami home products because of the lawsuit (and microwaved the ones I already owned), and the only reason I don't boycott arcade DDR is because all the machines are bootlegs anyway. But I'll again be encouraging the arcade owners I know to upgrade away from DDR, because it makes me ill to see the Konami logo in an arcade, even if the machines are all bootlegs.
Konami's #2 on my "evil companies" list right now, right behind SCO at #1. Incredibly, Microsoft's dropped all the way down to #7 over the past few years... it's amazing how times are changed. |
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gay dentist
Trick Member
Joined: 21 May 2005
Location: Twin Cities Area, Minnesota |
| 13. Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 6:54 am Post subject: |
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I like konami, But quite hnoestly, I could care less about this! Hmm...why am I posting here?  |
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zdemigoth
Trick Member
Joined: 05 Oct 2002
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| 14. Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 7:32 am Post subject: |
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| Bunnymoon wrote: | Why did PIU have to be released in August. It increases the chance that it will never be released here.
This of course was bound to happen. With all these alliances going on around konami, it was obvious what was going to happen. Konami is releasing several dance related games, competition means less money. The more they can stall other companies games, they figure people will get tired waiting for these PIU and other non Konami dance games, and take the DDR/KONAMI wagon.
Its kinda sad, the fact that they dont have faith in their own games survival against competition. I think if they put more effort in the games, and less in the lawsuits. Of course thats my opinion. Im sure others feel the opposite, but thats just my two cents.
Watch out they might try prosecuting individual people who make custom dance pads for personal use and for profit to make an example.(Unlikely... But possible) |
Regardless of your opinion of the purpose of patents, they were created to reward companies that would seek innovations with limited time monopolies over those innovations. Patents are supposed to give the owner complete control over that invention until the patent runs out. At the same time, the patent forces that company to reveal their technology so that, after the patent expires, companies are better able to use and improve upon the technology in question. Konami is simply enjoying the benefits they are supposed to receive by filing a patent. If RoXoR wants to wait they should be able to do a DDR rip-off in about 2018... |
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Char
Trick Member
Joined: 30 Apr 2004
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| 15. Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 7:43 am Post subject: |
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| zdemigoth wrote: | | Konami is simply enjoying the benefits they are supposed to receive by filing a patent. If RoXoR wants to wait they should be able to do a DDR rip-off in about 2018... |
And therein lies a major fault with software patents. The world of computing moves way too fast for software top be patented for so long. If you invent the tin opener, 20 years is plenty of time to capitalise on your invention. If you "invent" something software-based, by the time 20 years rolls around there probably won't even exist hardware to run whatever it is you wrote. Patents expiring now were written in 1985. How much stuff from 1985 do you think has relevance on the market today? |
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DDRguyKAOS
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Joined: 04 Jun 2004
Location: Next up |
| 16. Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 9:31 am Post subject: |
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| PedanticOmbudsman wrote: | | I've already boycotted Konami home products because of the lawsuit (and microwaved the ones I already owned) |
First of all, how many konami pruducts do you buy weekly to make a difference? Second of all, why destroy what you own? Rambling!
Ugh, I've been sick of Konami gearing US DDR releases towards fat housewives that want to excercise to 80's hits anyway. I suppose your right that it dosnt really matter what you prefer about either game, I just hope this one blows over. The less trouble Roxor gets in, the faster we can get our hands on new ITG releases ^^
Does anybody have a serious speculation on if the lawsuit will fall through or actually make Roxor pay damages? Does it look like it could go either way or does it look more one-sided?
[EDIT] Thanks to Catastrophe for the below post. Poor Roxor... as long as my repo game and arcade location arent repoed lol. Hope Roxor doesn't get blown into oblivion..
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Last edited by DDRguyKAOS on Mon Jul 11, 2005 7:55 am, edited 2 times in total |
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Cutriss
Staff Member
Joined: 24 Jan 2002
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| 17. Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 9:50 am Post subject: |
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| DDRguyKAOS wrote: | | Does anybody have a serious speculation |
god...EVERYONE has "serious speculation" about it. This is the Internet for crying out loud.
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thewheel
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Joined: 12 Feb 2003
Location: Madison, WI |
| 18. Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 9:50 am Post subject: |
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| Char wrote: | | How much stuff from 1985 do you think has relevance on the market today? |
Microsoft shipped Windows 1.0 on November 20, 1985............
Eddie "thewheel" Woolf
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Catastrophe
Trick Member
Joined: 04 Mar 2002
Location: Worcester, MA |
| 19. Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 9:57 am Post subject: Rights |
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| mtwieg wrote: | | how can konami claim a patent on the entire dancing game genre?? That's like patenting rpg's or first person shooters, which is ridiculous. |
I'm glad you asked!
| Catastrophe wrote: | Konami's recent amendment has nothing to do with a monopoly or competition. I'm sure that no one here likes being lectured too, but what I have to say is important. If you're the type of person who generally understands IP law and knows what Konami's complaints are then you'll do just fine. But if you're the type of person who gets the words 'trademark' and 'copyright' confused then you're in for a long read. And if you don't understand why you can be sued for making a Tetris clone but never sued for making a Disgaea / GTA3 / Halo clone, then you should read this too.
I. Monopoly
II. Unfair Competition
III. Conclusion
I. Monopoly
Konami isn't doing this to maintain a monopoly. The word monopoly is being sometimes misused here. The way I'm hearing people use it, it's like saying that Microsoft has a monopoly on Windows. You can't have a monopoly on a product. What MS-does have is a near-monopoly on operationg systems. Take the example one step futher. If someone were to make a new OS from scratch that copied WinXP's design and possibly parts of the implementation (but from scratch), then Microsoft would still have a case. And if they were to sue, then they wouldn't be defending their monopoly on Windows. They wouldn't be defending a monopoly at all. They'd be defending their product and their IP. Likewise, Konami can't have a monopoly on the dance-game genre. You cannot monopolize dance games. The thing that can be monopolized here is the entire rhythm genre. But this case does not have that kind of scope. So again, Konami does not have a monopoly on dance games. They were just first-to-market with an original product that has captured pretty much all of the market share. That's not a monopoly. That's just being #1.
II. Unfair Competition
Worldwide, competition is regarded as a good thing. (heh) But there are rules to competition. For example, you're not allowed to sell gasoline at sixty cents per gallon (an obvious loss) so that you can bankrupt your competitors in a month. You're also not allowed to buy all of product X from a competitor and resell it in your own store. If you don't know why, think about it. Real life does not work like the Parker Brothers board game Monopoly. There are all kinds of things that you cannot do as a buissness. For example, if you commit intentional trademark infringement, then it is an additional crime to sell your product in the same channels as the product that you're being confused with. (In the case of arcade games there are so few channels that it can't be helped, but it's still illegal.) You also can't litterally hijack the competition, even if you're clear patent-wise. (Although if you're not even clear patent-wise then you're frick seven ways from Wednesday.) In Konami's complaint they explain why RoXoR is unfairly competing with them. And Konami's claims are solid here. The unfair competition parts aren't really open to dispute like the patent claims might be. RoXoR did some very stupid things in getting their product to market.
III. Conclusion
Remember that I said that you can be sued for making a Tetris clone but not clones of most other games? The reason is because Tetris is original. Before Tetris, nothing like Tetris existed anywhere on Earth. We had tangrams, we had Legos, and that's about it. No real-time line-forming magic-7 score-keeping game. It has been said before that nothing is original and that everything is a derivative. That's not exactly true or else we wouldn't have a need for patents and copyrights. You can look at most 'revolutionary' games and see why they're clone-able. Dragon Quest just copied pencil and paper role playing games. Pong was just tennis. Doom had revolutionary technology, but it was still a game about shooting crap with a weapon and that's about as unoriginal as gameplay gets. Racing games, fighting games, and so on. You could even say that Parappa was a musical version of Simon Says. But Konami invented the judgement window for rhythm games. And they invented the vertical scrolling display for rhythm games. Combined, that makes Bemani unique and original. And Konami does own it all. And like the owners of Tetris, Konami does have to frequently sue people to make the public aware of their rights.
You can't make a Bemani derivative without permission. PIU at least gave being unique a half-assed attempt. RoXoR didn't even try, besides breaking other random laws. A good example of being both inspired and unique would be Beatmania -> FreQuency. Harmonix, being a bunch of smart guys, figured out what made Bemani games unique (those two things that I mentioned.) And then they did something as intentionally different as possible. They added powerups, checkpoints, the ability to switch which instrument you're currently playing, they did away with judgement windows, and they made a completely original 3D interface for it all. Also, since their 3D interface was so original, they were awarded a patent on that as well. (So no cloning FreQ, either.) Harmonix did everything right with their first game. RoXoR is outrageously in the wrong. |
And finally:
| Catastrophe wrote: | Holy crap, that was a long post! And a bunch of new posts have appeared since then. My point is that yes you can own the rights to gameplay. For example you can copyright the 7 Tetris pieces or recieve a patent on Bemani's judgement windows. And trust me, you can make puzzle games without those 7 Tetris pieces and you can make many rhythm games without judgement windows. And if you don't believe me, then try publishing an unlicensed Tetris game. I dare you. Not.  |
EDIT: I love when those sponsored links that get injected into your posts highlight words like 'music' and 'first person shooter' with bold green underlined text when those words shouldn't have any emphasis placed on them at all. Especially in the middle of a quote. |
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