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Plautus
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Joined: 17 Oct 2002
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540.  Posted: Fri May 13, 2005 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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| tpmwr wrote: | http://www.arcadelifestyle.com/ab/Dsc00596.jpg
And as a note, I know my machine is illegal, you should all just accept that ITG is illegal too ^^ |
As a side note, even though I haven't played it, I can tell from here that that machine kicks a LOT of ass. |
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Anthony of TGA
Vivid Member
Joined: 20 Jun 2004
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| 541. Posted: Fri May 13, 2005 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Plautus wrote: | | tpmwr wrote: | http://www.arcadelifestyle.com/ab/Dsc00596.jpg
And as a note, I know my machine is illegal, you should all just accept that ITG is illegal too ^^ |
As a side note, even though I haven't played it, I can tell from here that that machine kicks a LOT of ass. |
Every song from every mix ever ^^ (including gameboy)
It's prollt about 5x as illegal as ITG, but I love it ^^
It's at Tokyo Game Action in Woonsocket, RI right now. www.TokyoGameAction.com |
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Lost_Sage
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Joined: 12 May 2002
Location: Atherton, CA -- New York, NY |
| 542. Posted: Fri May 13, 2005 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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Liberated of law school finals forever (turned the last one in today!), I now have time to point a few things out.
(1) The link to the article breaking down the patent claims point by point was outstanding. Most lawyers do not write that well, that's a fact.
(2) A settlement is not an act of the court. It is a contract between the parties -- you pay me, and I tell the court to dismiss the lawsuit. Only the dismissal of the lawsuit with prejudice (that is, it goes away and can't ever be brought again) is the court's action.
The terms of the settlement, as a private contract, don't have to be disclosed. Anyone having trouble finding details on the Konami-Andamiro stuff: that's your reason. Likewise, if Konami and Roxor settle, they're not required to tell the world what the terms were. Anything you find out about either -- almost certainly an inside leak.
(3) Many of you ask why the arcade operators aren't being named in the suit. Many reasons, from the cynical to the evidentiary. Among them:
- Roxor has deeper pockets.
- To the extent both Roxor and the operators are liable, Roxor is arguably more liable from a causation standpoint (providing the allegedly infringing technology).
- It is unlikely Konami can get personal jurisdiction (translated, that means = the ability to drag the person into court in the state) over all the operators in Texas.
- Also, finding out who those operators are (they would be named as Does 1-XXX in the complaint) would take some pretty hefty amended pleadings and discovery. Konami is rich, but it knows when to avoid thousands more buckeroos in legal fees due to disocvery.
(4) Stepmania is obviously not being targeted because, well, practically, it's not perceived as a threat, and, technically, it does not infringe the patent (or if it does, not to the allegedly abhorrent extent the Roxor mod kits do).
(5) Why would Konami settle? Besides all the reasons everyone correctly mentions (PR, economics, technology, etc.), courts really, REALLY (sorry to shout, but even with the shouting, still an understatement!) push parties to settle. Alternative dispute resolution, negotiation, settlement - these are all the rage in the legal world, especially in federal courts. District courts have standing rules about case management conferences that encourage, if not mandate parties work together.
In fact, under certain circumstances, if you refuse to settle, and you get judgment less than the settlement amount, fees and costs will shift to you even as the prevailing party. Oops. Konami doesn't want that.
Plenty for now, I guess. I have enjoyed reading the comments of those of you who have contributed enlightened and thoughtful discussion of this issue.
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Remy
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Joined: 24 Jan 2002
Location: Astoria, NY |
| 543. Posted: Fri May 13, 2005 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Lost_Sage wrote: | | (1) The link to the article breaking down the patent claims point by point was outstanding. Most lawyers do not write that well, that's a fact. |
Wow, thanks, I appreciate it.
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Thomas Hobbes
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Joined: 20 Aug 2002
Location: San Francisco // NorCal |
| 544. Posted: Fri May 13, 2005 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Remy wrote: | | Lost_Sage wrote: | | (1) The link to the article breaking down the patent claims point by point was outstanding. Most lawyers do not write that well, that's a fact. |
Wow, thanks, I appreciate it. |
=O You wrote it?
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dieKatze88
Trick Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2003
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| 545. Posted: Fri May 13, 2005 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | (23:14:01) die Katze 88: bullshit your machine is more legal than ITG
(23:14:34) die Katze 88: Konami would send their Konami-Ninjas after you with little knives if you even thought of having more than one of those.
(23:14:57) TPMWR: I said more illegal
(23:14:59) TPMWR: read it again
(23:15:11) die Katze 88: oh damnit im tired
(23:15:17) TPMWR: roflcopter
(23:15:21) TPMWR: I am like 5x more illegal
(23:15:25) die Katze 88: you are like
(23:15:30) die Katze 88: ROFLCOPTERx more illegal
(23:15:30) die Katze 88: yes
(23:15:35) die Katze 88: ROFLCOPTER is a number
(23:15:41) TPMWR: but, I CAN sell you a nice bag of Pepsi and some labels ^^
(23:15:54) die Katze 88: Make it Mountian Dew and its a deal
(23:16:17) die Katze 88: we should definately post this conversation
(23:16:26) TPMWR: agreed |
I think we can all agree that we stand in the "Lets let Konami nail RoXor for doing something wrong. not because their game sucks.[/quote]
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Anthony of TGA
Vivid Member
Joined: 20 Jun 2004
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| 546. Posted: Fri May 13, 2005 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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Oh all the illegalities:
Weeeeeee!!!!!
Last edited by Anthony of TGA on Fri May 13, 2005 7:54 pm, edited 1 time in total |
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Jeffreyw
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Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Location: Spokane, WA |
| 547. Posted: Fri May 13, 2005 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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Pretend that the bottle is you and that when you feel empty because the ddr is gone,the itg comes and fills u up. 
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Anthony of TGA
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Joined: 20 Jun 2004
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| 548. Posted: Fri May 13, 2005 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Jeffreyw wrote: | | Pretend that the bottle is you and that when you feel empty because the ddr is gone,the itg comes and fills u up. |
I would respond to that, but they would give me another god damned point. |
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Jeffreyw
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Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Location: Spokane, WA |
| 549. Posted: Fri May 13, 2005 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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try the pm button rofls.
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Pumeleon
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Joined: 09 Aug 2004
Location: Fort Wayne, IN |
| 550. Posted: Fri May 13, 2005 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Plautus wrote: | | tpmwr wrote: | http://www.arcadelifestyle.com/ab/Dsc00596.jpg
And as a note, I know my machine is illegal, you should all just accept that ITG is illegal too ^^ |
As a side note, even though I haven't played it, I can tell from here that that machine kicks a LOT of ass. |
I'm actually doing something similar, except on two solo machines, and with lots of new originals in addition to all the songs from IIDX, minus the songs that were already on DDR. DM Ashura is doing the stepfiles.
As a note, I found out about this after I ordered the parts and machines. 
Plus, I'm having Ashura himself make a neoMAX MaXx AtaXx and Maxx Ressurexxion nonstop megamix. Heavy will be max300 difficult... Oni will be so hard, I'll have to make the difficulty rating three flashing skull and crossbones with bleeding eye sockets. |
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J. S. Mill
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Joined: 28 Apr 2003
Location: New York, New York |
| 551. Posted: Fri May 13, 2005 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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Posted at the Request of the Author:
| Quote: | Konami v. Roxor: An Analytical Perspective
Preface: Keep in mind that I have written this more or less off the top of my head, with no intention to declare that this is the last word, or even my last word on the situation. This is just how I feel through what I've observed so far, and its subject to be changed or modified at any time. If you would like to challenge, support, or otherwise comment upon anything I said, feel free. That's the magic of livejournal. I guess.
Most of the people who read this will know who I am. I would like to think that my standing in the community would give more validity to what I have to say, but it doesn't. I'd like to think that my experience with these games somehow lends to me authority that I otherwise might not have, but it doesn't. It takes neither an experienced player of these games, nor an internet deity to understand and explain in a logical, consistent, and moreover, justifying way, what is going on in this case.
The announcement that Konami was taking Roxor to court was met with pretty much every possible response one could imagine from the community, and that was no surprise to any of us who anticipated the announcement of litigation. After all, the bemani community, for the most part, is consisted of average-to-below-average teens and young adults with a lot more going for them in the way of emotion and WPM-speed then legal or business sense. The one point of view that seems almost universal amongst all who really shouldn't be speaking of the case anyway however is this: Konami has no reason to sue ITG and is just a big mean corporate machine.
For those of you who don't know, Konami recently filed a formal compliant against Roxor seeking, among other things, an injunction (they want to stop Roxor immediately from selling their challenged product(s)), damages, lawyers' fees, etc. The chief focus of the complaint lies in Roxor's business model of making side-grade kits that replace the internal workings of a DDR machine with what is essentially a PC. This is referred to as "retrofitting", and the bulk of the text in the official court filings deal with the legal do's and don'ts of this type of behavior. (1)
Konami is not in the business of being mean. Being an bumhole isn't a profession, it's a hobby; trust me, I know. Konami is in the business of making money, and they do so quite well. To truly understand the case before us we must understand the motives of both sides. We must truly understand why Roxor did what it did (thus putting itself in a rather precarious position) and more importantly why Konami has decided it is worth their time, money, and effort to stop them.
There is something to be said for being mean, but most people who enjoy being mean stop when it costs them money. Understand that a Japanese company taking up litigation on foreign soil is no small task. What Konami is doing will likely cost them a dollar amount greater than that of Roxor's operating profits for this year. It would be irrational for them to do this without just cause; and they certainly have it. Unfortunately it seems most people are blissfully ignorant of this.
The first, and most logical point that many people bring up when they discuss this action is that Konami hasn't released an arcade version of DDR for well over two years, and hasn't made any formal announcements that they plan to at any point in the future. The natural result of this line of reasoning helps many arrive at the conclusion that Roxor's business, which up until now has been retrofitting old DDR machines with a newer version of the game, does absolutely nothing to hurt Konami's bottom line. This is false. What is true, however, is that Konami's interest, as far as we can tell with public knowledge, is not in the arcade arena. Sure, it is reasonable that they wouldn't want their name associated with an inferior project (their words) and that problems arise to this tune thanks to the nature of retrofitting, but is that really worth going to court over? I don't think so.
The key difference we must acknowledge here, however, is that between MONEY and VALUE. The existing DDR machines in America make absolutely NO money for Konami, in the literal sense that almost everybody reading this will take it to mean. That doesn't mean they are not valuable however. Most people have a certain tunnel vision. They see this case dealing with arcade machines, and they focus on arcade machines. But the one connection people fail to make is that JUST BECAUSE KONAMI DOESNT SELL DDR MACHINES ANYMORE DOESN'T MEAN THEY DON'T MAKE MONEY OFF THE FRANCHISE.
By now, all but the most idiotic of you understand where I am going with this. Naturally, the only large source of income related to DDR that Konami is still enjoying is the home-version sales. Also, perhaps they are still making money per the terms of their 2002 settlement with Andamiro, however this is speculative (although still important). So we must then realize that there has to be a vital connection between arcade machines and home-version sales, if we are to assume that Konami is acting rationally (which it is).
Very recently, Konami of Japan remarked in one of their public meetings that they were quite pleased (and surprised one might imagine) at the strength of sales in the U.S. market for Dance Dance Revolution software. For those of you who don't know, total sales were well over 1 million units in 2004 alone, and several million total since they first started selling domestically. (2) While I cannot speak authoritatively about how much profit they capture from this number of sales, its safe to say it is huge, and certainly dwarfs any profit they ever made from selling DDR machines domestically. And there's the surprise twist.
The sale of DDR machines is not NEARLY as important to Konami, financially, as the sale of home versions. And why would it be? There are anywhere between 2,000 and 3,000 DDR machines in U.S. (3), the majority of which weren't even actually meant for use in America. The amount of home versions of DDR sold in America (not even counting imported versions, which are what the real die-hards are buying) outshines the amount of machines within our borders by three orders of magnitude. You don't even need to know the specifics regarding the margins on both products to realize which one is way more important to them.
So how does Roxor threaten Konami's DDR-CS sales? Well the answer is quite obvious now, with the release of ITG2 for the PS2 only days away. But that's way too easy. Let's rewind. Let's assume that when Konami was deciding to go through with this action they had no way of knowing that Roxor planned on a console release (even though it was a safe assumption, and a fact constantly confirmed by Roxor staff as early as 16 months ago). After all, Konami makes no complaint about the home software in their suit. What then, does Roxor's initial business model (of simply retrofitting old DDR machines) effect on Konami's end?
Product visibility. There are only a few thousand DDR machines in this country, and for each one, Konami only made a few thousands dollars on its sale, but the second they started selling home versions, those arcade machines meant more than a product in place. They became advertising. Think of where almost all of these machines are placed: high-traffic areas, in malls, schools, arcades (almost always placed up near the front, visible from the outside), in miniature-golfing establishments, at swap meets. With the exception of the few DDR players skillful and good-looking enough to win their own machines, and the players so dedicated and rich to buy their own machine, each machine is like a bright, giant, screaming, interactive billboard that demands the attention of every man, woman and child who walks within range of its 100dB music. Konami doesn't make a penny off of a DDR machine in a busy, crowded mall. And it consequently doesn't lose a penny when that DDR machine is upgraded to ITG. What happens, though, is that every day the thousands of people who otherwise would have heard the familiar sound of Butterfly, seen the frequent spectacle of lonely nerds making fools out of themselves, and been reminded by a 5-square foot marquee that they were seeing DANCE DANCE REVOLUTION in all its glory will see "In The Groove" instead. The game is still a dancing game, and to the average person, no discernment could be made (this is actually one of the legal problems Roxor is going to run into in court), but without that name there, that machine has lost its billboard value.
There are thousands of machines in the United States. And over 100 of them have now become ITG machines. That means it is likely that already, millions of pairs of eyeballs that might have otherwise been seeing the mundane, lime green background of the DDR:Extreme marquee now have passed their arcades, or walked through their malls, completely unreminded of DDR, except as a secondary association to the "new" game that has replaced it. Those millions of eyeballs belong to millions of impulsive, exploitable shoppers, the same millions of shoppers who in 2004 bought 1.2 million copies of various Dance Dance Revolution games for themselves an loved ones, many of them no doubt impulse buys, because they wanted to see what all the rage was about; they wanted to play that game they saw in the arcade.
If Roxor is allowed to continue to slowly but surely overtake Konami's DDR arcade presence, the sales of DDR's home versions will suffer. This is true regardless of whether or not Roxor releases ITG:Home Version, but they are exacerbated now by the fact that it is obvious it will. Because now the very effect that Konami has enjoyed, to the tune of millions of dollars, will not only be taken from them, but transferred over to Roxor. Consumers have a brief memory. If you flash a product name before somebody's eyes, it makes them more likely to buy that product over a competitor's an hour later. If you scream "IN THE GROOVE" at somebody in the mall, it will make them much more likely to buy In The Groove for their PS2 instead of DDR Ultramix 2 for their X-Box (4).
Konami is perfectly cogent, both legally, and professionally, in the way they are handling this case. I wish Roxor the best, because I consider myself friendly with several people involved in the ITG project, but it is clear that Konami not only has the legal case against them, but the justification for pursuing it as well. It is perfectly rational for the community of ITG fans to express dissatisfaction with the prospect that the company that made the game will now have to face up to charges of unfair competition. But it is not, however, fair, to claim Konami has no reason for doing this. That sentiment stems from bitterness that Konami put DDR on hiatus two years ago, but unfortunately everybody has to realize that Konami is neither in the business of being mean, nor in the business of being benevolent. If they stopped making DDR upgrades, there was likely a good reason. If that is what you're upset about, do not curse Konami. But curse the pirates who mercilessly copied and distributed illegally the software for DDR:Extreme. Curse yourselves for supporting arcades who purchased these illegal upgrades, which contributed not one cent or yen to the development costs of the software. But just because Konami could no longer realize a profit from the arcade-division of its DDR franchise doesn't mean that they are deserving of everybody's censure.
(1) - http://www.konami.co.jp/en/news/topics/050511/
(2) - http://www.konami.com/gs/usa/press/ddrmillion012705.html
(3) - http://www.ddrfreak.com/locations/locations.php [Listed locations: 2101, but its safe to assume there are a sizable amount of unreported locations or locations with multiple machines]
(4) - While I can not name any one particular study to exemplify this point, the effects of subliminal advertising are clear, and while the presence of DDR Machines is not quite subliminal, I contend that the response to stimuli would remain the same regardless, as long as the person is not aware they are being advertised to. There are many studies to this effect, I just do not have the time to find one to my precise liking at the moment.
--John Sheridan |
http://www.livejournal.com/users/johnnysheridan/1348.html
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DJTyrant
Maniac Member
Joined: 25 Jan 2002
Location: Ventura, CA |
| 552. Posted: Fri May 13, 2005 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for posting that Kiba, Johnny's post was REALLY well done.
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CubsWoo
Trick Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2003
Location: St. Charles, IL |
| 553. Posted: Fri May 13, 2005 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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| tpmwr wrote: | Oh all the illegalities:
Weeeeeee!!!!! |
I wasn't aware this was catching on... heh. Not quite what I envisioned, but hey, whatever works. |
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Jeffreyw
Trick Member
Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Location: Spokane, WA |
| 554. Posted: Fri May 13, 2005 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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| SPF5.Kiba wrote: | Posted at the Request of the Author:
| Quote: | | Konami v. Roxor: An Analytical Perspective |
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I realized this when I had thought about it yesterday and yes its excatly why they are doing it. The court will figure this out quickly im sure. As far as I see it though nothing roxor is doing can be haulted intill after everything is done. (wich is why I don't think itg2 or itg for the ps2 will be affected by this at all.)
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hamasaki
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Location: Gettin' ya like a Space Boy |
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Neon Kel
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Joined: 01 Mar 2002
Location: Diamond Bar, CA |
| 556. Posted: Sat May 14, 2005 7:20 am Post subject: |
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I think Johnny hit it right on the mark. It makes perfect sense and gives me a much better understanding of the entire situation. And personally, if i was a corporation as large as Konami is, i would do the same thing. Now Roxor has already begun to take the right step as far as creating their own cabinets, but because they've basically taken away some of that avertisement value from Konami, it's deemed as unfair competition. Especially upon release of ITG for the PS2.
Since i do enjoy ITG more than DDR i wish Roxor luck, but they are in trouble indeed.
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NVLM_ZK
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Joined: 06 Nov 2004
Location: Japan,Shizuoka pref, |
| 557. Posted: Sat May 14, 2005 7:29 am Post subject: My answer |
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As for such cases, I was also doing anticipation.
Probably, it is when or whether it appeals.
However, I think that it is difficult for the Roxor Games side to win the case.
On a position and a legal relation.
I am praying that the Roxor Game side wins the case.
However, each other position is in the situation which is very contradictory and cannot be seen.
I think that a possibility that the Konami side will win the case for the moment is high.
"Since it is EZ2DJ and a case like Pump It Up."
However, the probability for Roxor Game to win the case is not 0%. Finally in the case of EZ2DJ, EZ2DJ won to IIDX etc.
True. yes, true.
Although it seems that the copyright problem is also involved, this is a very difficult problem.
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Tsuri
Trick Member
Joined: 14 Oct 2003
Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
| 558. Posted: Sat May 14, 2005 7:55 am Post subject: |
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| The machines do function as advertisement however... It really doesn't matter... DDR has been burned into the average gamers brain... I play Pump it Up here and kids and some adults call it DDR... and people always come in there "I heard there was a DDR here, the guy that told me must have been mistaken." It's to the point where people don't even read title screens, marquees, or anything what so ever on a machine... they just simply think it's another DDR game type... which it isn't. |
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DUDEsup13
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Joined: 09 Jul 2004
Location: Apple Valley (Burnsville) |
| 559. Posted: Sat May 14, 2005 8:51 am Post subject: |
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Sigh... this would have never happened if ITG was never even though of. I personally, with all due respect, cannot stand ITG. It has never appealled to me, and I dont think it ever will. ITG is just a cheap DDR ripoff. DDR was the original, the first, the best. Yeah DDR could use some modifications, song wise, but I know the can fix that. I KNOW. Everyone who says konami sucks, that just pisses me off. Konami has made countless hits, besides DDR. The MGS Solid series happenes to be one of my favorite games of all time. I think what you are trying to say is, "The konami lawsuite sucks". Or, God I hate to say this, "DDR SUCKS!!". Konami is a good company and I hope people change their minds about what they are saying. DDR might have somewhat lost its touch, but konami is a helluva lot better than Roxor. Plus, I dont see why everyone is arguing. DDR, PIU, ITG, IIDX, ect., ect., has NO FUTURE. ALL music games have faded a great deal in Japan. And soon, that will happen in the US. Im sorry but this lawsuite is BS. Give ITG a chance, it doesent have too long of a future anyway. Nor DDR, nor PIU, nor IIDX. Roxor and Konami will continue to to make games. Will anywone give a sh1t? NO. NOBODY WILL! SO before you jump to any conclusion about this, just think about it. Take a few seconds out of your life to think about this mess. Good day.
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