Trouble in Groove-land

LET ME SHOW YOU THEM · Posted: Fri May 13, 2005 3:50 am Post subject:

We do run an arcade, hence why we went for a cheaper older mix. I'd gotten terribly bored of extreme by the time we decided to do this, and playing the beta in Seattle cemented the fact that a) we wanted a cabinet for our own (my roommate and i have both wanted one for years) and b) we wanted itg. If ITG in ddr cabs does get recalled, i guess it is back to asian 3rd mix

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theficionado wrote:

Seriously, they should make some sort of spray for you.

Wolfman Jake · Trick Member Joined: 13 Sep 2002

LET ME SHOW YOU THEM · Posted: Fri May 13, 2005 4:30 am Post subject:

At any rate, I really hope RoXoR doesn't go under. It is really nice being able to have aim conversations with members of the team and to have questions answered. To some of us major "fanboys", they aren't just a company making a favorite game. How many arcade companies do you know of that has their CEO show up at a pre-release party where fans are also invited, let alone actually let said fans with access to a free bar speak with him

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theficionado wrote:

Seriously, they should make some sort of spray for you.

Cutriss · Staff Member Joined: 24 Jan 2002

Wolfman Jake · Trick Member Joined: 13 Sep 2002

Cutriss · Staff Member Joined: 24 Jan 2002

You know about as well as I do. Konami said it would be upgraded hardware, but that existing cabinets would be upgradeable to the new platform. I have yet to hear from anyone in a real position to say, however, as to how different it is.
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Sentient Mode is capable...

VxJasonxV · Posted: Fri May 13, 2005 6:58 am Post subject:

Anthony of TGA · Vivid Member Joined: 20 Jun 2004

trayball2k · Trick Member Joined: 14 Mar 2005 Location: Bronx, New York

sherl0k · Maniac Member Joined: 27 Jan 2002 Location: the internet

There was an upgrade for 2nd

3rd, so it's not like another upgrade isn't possible.
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[quote:ed1f6848c5=\\\"jaeness\\\"]get your change from obama, he apparently has tons of it.[/quote]

Anthony of TGA · Vivid Member Joined: 20 Jun 2004

DancingMewtwo · Posted: Fri May 13, 2005 7:27 am Post subject:

Come on now...there's a better way to do this than suing.

Konami searches out the best player in the world who plays DDR over ITG.

Roxor searches out the best player in the world who plays ITG over DDR.

A "Lawsuit Mix" is created, in which there are only 11 songs -- all new.
Perfect attack competition, first to 6 wins, winner's game gets the rights to DDR, ITG, and any associated dance game.
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I'm the one who provided the fully unlocked DDR Extreme gamesave. There's a link to it HERE. For those of you who were pulling your hair out over Mission 98: You're welcome.

dieKatze88 · Trick Member Joined: 10 Aug 2003

Username Disallowed · Trick Member Joined: 18 Oct 2004 Location: Hi

That's sweet that they gave a shout out to DDRfreak in the complaint!

I haven't finished reading everything yet so I dunno how good their case is. All I can say is...please release the PS2 version ASAP.

Tsuri · Posted: Fri May 13, 2005 8:52 am Post subject:

I think if they did settle Andamiro might buy them... think about it... they have the money to suppourt another dance game... and having the kind of fanbase that ITG has added on to what PIU has gained (in multiple countries) would be a good thing... I really could care less about Konami's dance games... but their non-dance music games are alright... I will just play pirated copies instead of real ones if they completely put Roxor our of business...

and that will be my revenge

Loogaroo · Trick Member Joined: 06 Feb 2002 Location: Glendale, CA

SineNomine · Trick Member Joined: 17 Jan 2004 Location: Boise, ID

Wow, it's hard to foster a good debate on here when the thread moves so fast. Because my last post was so far behind, I can't really answer anything that people said to answer me, so I have a couple of things that occured to me.

1 Good call by that link to call out the patent on the stage itself. I brought that up earlier, and it seems like a killer point for the patent portion of the complaint.

2 Any reasonable analysis by "professionals" on the point (excluding the "my friend is a lawyer and says it's BS" posts, because if your friend was really a lawyer, they'd have warrants for why it was BS that you could share with us) seems to point directly to Konami having an excellent case on almost all of their complaints.

3 People doomsaying to the effect of "Konami is gonna win this lawsuit and take Roxor for every penny it's worth, then continue to shun us" need to consider something: It is very unlikely that this suit will actually be brought to trial. Unless RoXoR has an argument that none of us have fathomed, they know that they have been caught dead-to-rights. I would guess that Konami brought all of their offense on their complaint partially to get Roxor to agree to a settlement. With as open and shut as this is, Roxor would be pretty foolish to take it to court. What a settlement would entail, I won't even speculate.

4 Some people need to take a debate class. Here's a primer for some of you:

*SineNomine's Debate Primer for Teh Interweb*
1) An argument consists of two things: a claim and a warrant.
- Generally, they are stuctured like this: "You suck (the claim), because you argue on the internet about stuff that cannot be proven (the warrant)"

2) Asnwering an argument means answering the WARRANT of an opposing argument. This is where most "novice" debaters get all confused. The warrant of a counterargument must answer the warrant of the origional argument. If it doesn't, you get 26 pages of people talking, but nothing really getting discussed.

3) "That's Your Opinion" is NOT an argument. If someone makes a warranted claim, then you are obligated to either answer the claim, or shut the hell up.

I've considered writing a guide on this a few times, but I doubt the people that really need to read it would bother. Seriously, it's easy. Someone makes a warranted claim, you answer the warrants of that claim and make a claim of your own.

zaphod · Trick Member Joined: 23 Jan 2002 Location: Hayward, CA

I know what's going on here, and why Konami waited till now.

Before, there was just the arcades. It wa s a clwear patent violation, but as they have no arcade business in the US, it was dong them no real harm. So Roxor thinks everything is in the clear. They have the stickers to cover the trademarks, and think that covers everything. but they forgot about the patent LINKED to those trademarks. Even if all trademarks are removed, the patented design which normnally carries those trademrks is STILL THERE. even though they are missing, the link is still percieved between the aptented cabinet design, and Konami's trademarks. And THAT is where Roxor's analysis fucked up.

As we discover later, ITG starts making it's way into Japan. Again, this does no real harm, because there are no more arcade mixes in japan being made, or so we think...

Then suddenly the home version is announced. NOW these hitherto harmless ITG machines are doing them harm. Poeple think ITG is the new DDR, and buy home version of ITG INSTEAD of DDR. that DOES hit their pocketbooks hard. NOW, they actually DO care. Until the home version was announced, they weren't being harmed. And that is Konami's complaint. They are using their changing of the arcade cabinets, which do not compete directly with them at the moment, to sell their competing product. ITG isn't standing on it's own merits, it's piggybacking on Konamis' patented DDR cabinet and their trademark recognition. ANd THAT is unethical.

In The Groove was never trying to be different from DDR. It was trying to be BETTER than DDR. And you can only do that if you don't violate any patents in the process. Konami looke dthe other way at the tiem because it wasn't hurting them yet, like any conscientious company.

People here say Konami isn the one being unethical. I'm sorry to say, it's Roxor that's in the wrong. They made DDR with more step grades, more mods, more gameplay modes, more difficulties, handplants, kneeslaps, and mines. They didn't make THEIR OWN DANCING GAME. That was ok, as long as they weren't competing. When they made the home versions, then they started competing. They did EXACTLY the stuff that patent and trademark laws are there to PREVENT.
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