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Juli no Fooly
Trick Member
Joined: 03 Feb 2003
Location: Arizona |
220.  Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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oooh, Court Documents.
This brings up somethign I did not think of: The existance of both KONAMI/DDR insignia and ROXORZ insignia on a machie nat the same time. This DOES happen a lot. GJ noticing, Konami. |
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LET ME SHOW YOU THEM
Vivid Member
Joined: 18 Jul 2002
Location: Mountain View/Sunnyvale CA |
| 221. Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Loogaroo wrote: |
Hell, if that's the case, why doesn't Konami just sue all the arcades that bought BoXoRs? They're the ones replacing the DDR motherboard with the ITG one. Get an injunction on all of them. I'm sure that would go over really well with the arcade owners. |
If that happens..i live in Ohio..right guys  >.<
Sorry for purchasing what i thought would be a better product to help my business out, Konami got money too, it isn't like ddr machines grow on trees.
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| theficionado wrote: | | Seriously, they should make some sort of spray for you. |
Last edited by LET ME SHOW YOU THEM on Wed May 11, 2005 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total |
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ghetto_maximus
Basic Member
Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Location: Beacon, NY |
| 222. Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 9:29 pm Post subject: comic relief |
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windows is to apple as roxor is to konami
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Yeehaw McKickass
Contributor
Joined: 06 Oct 2002
Location: Chicago Area |
| 223. Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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| neoNIKE.469 wrote: | | DDR Cabinets aren't supposed to be in the US anyways, and since the arcade purchased the cabinets, they can do with them what they please. |
You have a point here.
| Quote: | | I don't see how Konami of Japan can file suit against the machines being changed in the US. its much like putting Tekken in a Capcom vs SNK 2 cabinet. the copyright over the gameplay style is very questionable, but its not like remakes haven't been made in general. |
The difference here isn't as simple as a board swap in a generic cabinet. Konami owns U.S. and Japanese patents on the general cabinet desgin, stage, and internals of the machine. Installing a BoXoR (and technicallly putting the stickers supplied on the cabinet) is like using that patent as toilet paper.
| Quote: | | I believe in order to settle this, if RoXor puts up an offer to pay some royalties regarding the original idea of a dance game, it might put Konami at ease, but i do not believe they have justification for attacking the Roxor kit to be put in the outdated Konami cabinet. |
You're probably right on the settlement. But Konami has every right to sue RoXoR for Patent infringment. This whole thing comes off as more of a publicity stunt.
| Quote: | | Hopefully it's settled and we can have our ITG...unless Konami puts out a new DDR that is on a competitive level. without competition Konami was making their games at their own pace, with competition it should drive them to make better games for the players out there, but they won't...it's sad really. |
A sane comment.
| Quote: | | also for all you ITG haters out there...i'm going to be an elitist and say "STOP SUCKING AT THE GAME AND LEARN TO PLAY HARDER SONGS" kbye... |
Sorry if I'm overstepping my bounds here, but I just have to say this to that:
Not here, not now, not EVER. |
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Funkstar Polaris
Trick Member
Joined: 31 Aug 2003
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| 224. Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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Most of these counts seem to rest on the assertion that some who purchased ITG didn't apply the stickers to cover the DDR logos, and that constitutes the infringement. I'm no lawyer, but if Roxor ships the stickers and even includes a section in the manual on their proper application (which they do according to the one on the biz site), then in what way could they possibly be held accountable for the actions of the people who purchased ITG? It seems like Konami should be sueing the purchasers themselves if they're really concerned about those counts.
And I'm pretty sure that Roxor could get a few hundred 'expert witnesses' to testify with regards to the 'inferior' dancing game comment.  |
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Alex-jon
Basic Member
Joined: 07 Oct 2002
Location: San Antonio, TX |
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Loogaroo
Trick Member
Joined: 06 Feb 2002
Location: Glendale, CA |
| 226. Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Juli-pop wrote: | | This brings up somethign I did not think of: The existance of both KONAMI/DDR insignia and ROXORZ insignia on a machie nat the same time. This DOES happen a lot. GJ noticing, Konami. |
Again, it's not RoXoR's fault if an arcade owner doesn't put all the stickers on when they change the cabinet to play ITG instead. Why doesn't Konami sue the people who are actually causing the trademark infringement then?
Oh, that's right. Why sue your customers when you can sue your competition. Silly me.
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[B&] DumpsterKeeper
Vivid Member
Joined: 28 Jan 2002
Location: New Jersey (The Dumpster) |
| 227. Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Funkstar Polaris wrote: |
And I'm pretty sure that Roxor could get a few hundred 'expert witnesses' to testify with regards to the 'inferior' dancing game comment. |
In a court of law, they really won't give a shit, plus it's an opinion, something that if kept out of this thread by everybody would make this thread a much more tollerable read.
PS: This incident makes me want to watch "Pirates of Silicon Valley" again. 
PSS: OHai Xerox
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Last edited by [B&] DumpsterKeeper on Wed May 11, 2005 9:37 pm, edited 2 times in total |
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Alex-jon
Basic Member
Joined: 07 Oct 2002
Location: San Antonio, TX |
| 228. Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Loogaroo wrote: | | Juli-pop wrote: | | This brings up somethign I did not think of: The existance of both KONAMI/DDR insignia and ROXORZ insignia on a machie nat the same time. This DOES happen a lot. GJ noticing, Konami. |
Again, it's not RoXoR's fault if an arcade owner doesn't put all the stickers on when they change the cabinet to play ITG instead. Why doesn't Konami sue the people who are actually causing the trademark infringement then?
Oh, that's right. Why sue your customers when you can sue your competition. Silly me. |
http://www.ddrfreak.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=8088911#8088911
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Yeehaw McKickass
Contributor
Joined: 06 Oct 2002
Location: Chicago Area |
| 229. Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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EDIT: ^^^^ haahahaha you're right, I should have just quoted myself instead of retyping everything in that last post.
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Last edited by Yeehaw McKickass on Wed May 11, 2005 9:39 pm, edited 1 time in total |
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Wolfman Jake
Trick Member
Joined: 13 Sep 2002
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| 230. Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Kilgamayan wrote: | | I'm doing this at the request of a friend. Please don't shoot the messenger, the opinions in this post do not reflect my own. =\ |
I think it's in your best interest not to do anymore such favors for your friend 
Although, it's funny to watch him squirm out of blatantly saying:
"Hahahaha you got a frick psychology degree, every person that does that always turns out to be these extremely grandiloquent, "hey I'm smart because I took PSYCHOLOGY" people acting like they know entirely what's going on with a person in every given situation, like they can analyze people right off the bat. When really, they're probably the most annoying people in the world to converse with because they CONSTANTLY flaunt their degrees either directly or indirectly, and more often than not are people you'd rather not want to hang out with. The only time you want to see them is when you're actually there to see them at an office, other than that; no."
with:
"I got your little attempt at being funny. It wasn't, but that's besides the point. What I said had nothing to do with what you said aside from how psychology was your cup of tea, I was pointing out how you had a psychology degree."
Yeah, your friend was doing a bit more than "pointing out how" I have "a psychology degree."
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Edible Bondage Tape
Trick Member
Joined: 26 Jan 2002
Location: Kerri |
| 231. Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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| cj iwakura wrote: | | EnglishBastardizingTerror wrote: | | Char wrote: | | I pretty much came back to post the above. It'd be interesting to see someone who actually understands legal documents (HINT THIS PROBABLY MEANS NOT YOU) decypher this and tell us EXACTLY (no guessing) what Konami is upset about, how they can prove it, and what they want done about it. |
1. boxor kits
2. most of the stuff was minor complaints such as that arcade operators were not covering up the konami and DDR logos or were ven displaying both the roxor/itg and the konami/ddr stuff next to each other and that this would casue people to confuse ITG with a offical konami product its really easy stuff if you just read the first page where it defines all the stuff in simple english |
I think they're just using these 'minor complaints' as a loophole to get around the safeguards RoXoR had setup to prevent themselves from getting sued beforehand.
Now that Konami's found a weak point, they're going to claw and tear at it for all its worth.
I'm pulling for the company that actually gives a crap about the gaming community, which means RoXoR. Konami are just being petty.
Infringing on fair competition? Give me a break; Konami just don't want any. |
the minor stuff ice iceing on the cake they woudl win without mentioning the tradmakr and trade dressing infringment at all
| Char wrote: | | sfetaz wrote: | | After reading those documents, I do not think Roxor will have a chance of winning this case. Konami's points are clear and provable. |
In my 100% uninformed opinion (something lots of people in this thread are throwing out with absolutes like "Konami are" or "Roxor will" in front), some points are provable but on their own don't constitute a bad thing. The cover sheet states that ITG is made in a manner which is similar to DDR. This can be said of many things. If it said that DDR is a game designed for arcade play which rewards successful play with a higher rank on the scoreboard and is operated by coin for 1/2 players, that would be true, but I doubt arcades would remove virtually every machine they have.
| EnglishBastardizingTerror wrote: | | words |
No offence, seriously, none meant here, but I asked specifically for the opinion of someone who is versed in law, not Fanboy McJapan's view. Page 13-14 of the complaint looks pretty nasty. Stop making this, everyone connected is to stop making using or selling anything related to this is how I take it, where "this" could be anythng from a boxor to ITG itself. |
dude
its english englis is eay to read makeaa an HTML version of the file and ill quote and point out what each specific part means i swear its not hard
and thanks for the unearned and flamibait worthy fanboy remark too
EDIT ill just do it righ tnow to get you to be quite
starting with page 13 at the releive requested segment where you seem to be haivn gproblems at
1. roxor provides information about all money made
2. roxor pay a "fair" amount of damage based on their infriengment
3. roxor pay triple (yes treble damage means 3X payemnt usualy to do with rent or federal penalties) damage for the wilful adn deliberate acts done by them
4. roxor pay for any damage they did to konami by the mismatching of trademarks/ traid dressings
5. that roxor not be allowed to make any more boxor kits or to teach other people how to do so
6. roxor pays for the konami leagl fees
7.that roxor not be allowed to use any of konamis logos or other objects in its own goods
8. roxor destorys any sales flyers signs prints packages papers ect they have that has the konami logo or other logos that belong to konami or look simular to any owned by konami
9. that roxor gives to konami all computer programs advertising circulars leter heads and name plates to be destroyed
BONUS PAGE FIFTEEN
10. roxor pays konami an amount of money to be pbased on how much they made (this differnt from point 2)
11. (apparently point 3 again)
12. roxor provide a legaly binding oath that they have complied with all terms
13.roxor pays anything esle the court wants to make them pay
see nice and simple
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Last edited by Edible Bondage Tape on Wed May 11, 2005 9:52 pm, edited 1 time in total |
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Loogaroo
Trick Member
Joined: 06 Feb 2002
Location: Glendale, CA |
| 232. Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Yeehaw McKickass wrote: | | The difference here isn't as simple as a board swap in a generic cabinet. Konami owns U.S. and Japanese patents on the general cabinet desgin, stage, and internals of the machine. Installing a BoXoR (and technicallly putting the stickers supplied on the cabinet) is like using that patent as toilet paper. |
No it isn't. When you buy a machine, it's your machine. You can do whatever do damn well please with it. If you want to replace the monitor with some big-ass 60" projection TV, go for it. If you want to swap out the DDR motherboard and replace it with a BoXoR, go ahead. If you want to outfit so it'll play porn instead of using it for video games, more power to you.
There's nothing that says "You must use this machine for DDR and DDR only. Period. End of story." And again, if there were, then it would be the arcade owners violating that agreement, not RoXoR. Konami's barking up the wrong tree.
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Catastrophe
Trick Member
Joined: 04 Mar 2002
Location: Worcester, MA |
| 233. Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 9:43 pm Post subject: Merciful |
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On second thought, this doesn't look very merciful at all. But I wasn't in favor of it because it was merciful. I was in favor of it because it means that Konami is actually protecting their rights. And if Konami is protecting their rights then that can only mean better games from them in the future.
Do you guys remember why Konami stopped making arcade mixes in this country? Because people bootlegged the unholy hell out of a few Japanese games. There must be like 50 Extreme bootlegs for each legit Extreme out there, at best. But Konami didn't prosecute anyone back then because they would've had to have sued fans. But wouldn't it have been better that way? Imagine if Konami had stopped the bootlegging problem back in 2001. Then DDR MAX in 2002 could've had an arcade release and everything would've been great from then on. So I'm glad that Konami is finally doing something because they are being exploited. |
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sherl0k
Maniac Member
Joined: 27 Jan 2002
Location: the internet |
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Loogaroo
Trick Member
Joined: 06 Feb 2002
Location: Glendale, CA |
| 235. Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 9:50 pm Post subject: Re: Merciful |
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| Catastrophe wrote: | | So I'm glad that Konami is finally doing something because they are being exploited. |
How are they being exploited? They've made their money already. Konami doesn't get a cut of the profits an arcade makes from their machine. They sell it, they ship it, and that's the end of the transaction. There's no more money for Konami to make once that machine is sold to a customer. Even if you were to argue that this precludes Konami from making as much money in the future with a new version of the game, I would then ask
1) Where this new version is, and
2) Why they took so damn long to make it that they allowed a competitor to come in and take over a portion of the market.
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Yeehaw McKickass
Contributor
Joined: 06 Oct 2002
Location: Chicago Area |
| 236. Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Loogaroo wrote: | | Yeehaw McKickass wrote: | | The difference here isn't as simple as a board swap in a generic cabinet. Konami owns U.S. and Japanese patents on the general cabinet desgin, stage, and internals of the machine. Installing a BoXoR (and technicallly putting the stickers supplied on the cabinet) is like using that patent as toilet paper. |
No it isn't. When you buy a machine, it's your machine. You can do whatever do damn well please with it. If you want to replace the monitor with some big-ass 60" projection TV, go for it. If you want to swap out the DDR motherboard and replace it with a BoXoR, go ahead. If you want to outfit so it'll play porn instead of using it for video games, more power to you.
There's nothing that says "You must use this machine for DDR and DDR only. Period. End of story." And again, if there were, then it would be the arcade owners violating that agreement, not RoXoR. Konami's barking up the wrong tree. |
Exactly. If this goes to court, that will be RoXoR's defense.
Belive it or not, I agree with you on all the points your making here. It's a shame that's not how the patent law works in this country.
Just from looking around at some other patent cases, U.S. patent law is in dire need of updating.
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Edible Bondage Tape
Trick Member
Joined: 26 Jan 2002
Location: Kerri |
| 237. Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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loog
they arnt sueing the arcade operators because ht arcade operators dint do anything illega
roxor violated the patents and copy rights by making a kit that explisitly makes use of copyrighted and patentet technoligy without licensing the right to do so
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NWFL.Bumm
Trick Member
Joined: 10 Jul 2003
Location: Pensacola, FL |
| 238. Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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Is it me, or does this seem a bit too similar to that Terry Schiavo (sp?) case?
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BrandonMills
Trick Member
Joined: 24 Aug 2002
Location: Allston, MA |
| 239. Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 9:55 pm Post subject: This is getting ugly |
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I can't believe this.
So many people are taking glee in Roxor's problems that it's just unreal. Guys, Roxor was just trying to make what the community wanted. They're not terrible con artists who've just plastered their name over Konami's work. ( Those people are on eBay selling pirate mixes to Namco Arcade )
Roxor put a lot of time and efforting into creating "In The Groove", and you would have thought that the DDR community would have been a little more appreciative.
How about we just hope for the BEST for Roxor? Whether the suit is valid is for the courts to decide. ( if its not settled out of court. )
Does anyone here really want to see all of Roxors hard work and effort go to waste? ITG is a good game with its own merits. It can co-exist with DDR and DDR can co-exist with ITG.
This doesn't have to be a fight about going with one or the other. I'd prefer to enjoy both games. |
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