Selling Out (rant)

[Bioclown]

[~Reign~]

Bioclown, you're taking this the wrong way. See, there's something you've been failing to understand. The gaming industry is here for two reasons: One, entertainment, of course. And two, money, and lots of it. These companies do what is necessary to make that cheese. They are not selling out as you put it. They know what they have to do to make people buy their product, and it has nothing to do with heritage.

I'm a hardcore gamer myself, and when I looked at your 1st post, I laughed. Take a look around you. Do you REALLY think the gaming culture is deteriorating? I'll have to admit though, some of these titles that's been coming out haven't been worth my time, but as long as people like myself, and other hardcore gamers around keep it real, it's all good.

And if you still have a problem with companies making money at the expense of your heritage, *snicker* then don't support them, or just stop playing video games alltogether. It's that simple. And I'm pretty sure you're not just stop playing games, so either don't support them, or stop bitchin and keep it real.
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[Bioclown]

[Sinistar]

[~Reign~]

[n2oxide]

I get the feeling Bioclown's insecure about the fact that people he doesn't like are beginning to have similar interests as he does, or at least that he feels the need to be unique, special, and dare I say, superior. No offense, we all have that problem (or at least I do).

[Mart]

Here it is... It happens in just about any type of "culture". Once the mainstream world realizes a culture is "cool (or any equivalent qualificative)", then they adopt it. Then, the "fundamentalists" (read: oldbies) get scared and mad, because new people get interested in what made them different.

In my view, it is all a matter of "being different than the rest of the world". From what I saw, it happens in any culture.

Example: in the "underground hip-hop culture", Eminem was seen by many undergrounds activists as the hottest thing there was during the 90's. Then, when he went mainstream, out went the "sold out" cries from those same underground activists. Why? Because the mainstream world share loves Eminem, thus making liking Eminem "uncool (or any equivalent qualificative", by underground standards. And why is that? To be different! Why? Because being opposite to mainstream is "cool", by underground standards. Fortunately, this ideology isn't everyone's.

Idiotic ideology, I wholeheartedly agree. But that's the only explaination I can give about that perpetual "underground vs mainstream" thing. I found an interesting link that relates to that "UG vs MS" contest in the hip-hop industry, but it can be applied to mostly any "sub-culture".

Link: http://www.djbedz.com/articles/manifesto.html



But hey... all of that is simply my opinion, which means that it's basically worthless to argue over all of that. It's merely what I think of that topic, nothing more.
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[n2oxide]

What is so bad about gaming becoming more and more mainstream? More n00b135 on quakenet talking about their 'm4d 1337 5k1llz0rz l0l11!1!' ? Or perhaps it's the larger crowds at the arcades or the internet cafes we frequent? The only downside to gaming becoming more mainstream that I see is the pride the 'oldbies' (as Mart put it) lose in their so-called culture, causing them to rant and discard their 'culture' for something more unique.

[Vater5B]

[Mart]

[Ryu_Hirakashi]

This is the best thread I've come across in a long time.

Sinistar, your words move me in so many ways. I too have been playing games since I was six years of age, and for me I kind of considered it a lifestyle as well. Anybody can pick gaming up as a hobby, but only we hardcore can make a lifesyle out of it.

I, just as many in this forum having been playing for almost 3 years now, and I've seen this community go through a lot of changes. Some good and some bad. I certainly don't have a problem with more people getting envolved with the game that we all know and love; but it just changes some of the aspects of our community.

Considering the age range of most DDR players it makes it pretty difficult to do the kinds of things that me and my friends did. We enjoyed traveling to out of state tournies and having plenty of get togethers and having plenty of functions to celebrate our love for DDR.

We must all keep in mind the ramifications of things going mainstream. We must learn adapt as well as preserve our heritage. Maybe a small part of me feels the way the original poster feels, but I guess having more people to share the love with can't be that bad.

The only bad thing I can really say about DDR going mainstream is the fact that everybody that tries to explain the game almost never gets it right. For once I wish someone would explain what everything means in a technical sense, and combine these instructions with a well thought out lesson plan and visual aids that would really give the student a great sense of depth to what he is learning(but not to overwhelm).

As well as giving examples of other types of music that can used as well as to show just what can be done with this sort of artform in it's most extreme. That's all!!!

I just only wish that konami would bring over the rest of the bemani games so that people can experiece what bemani really is instead of just thinking that DDR is all that their is.

I just only wish their was a way that konami of america could reopen their arcade division and bring more arcade games to this region. What we need is more arcade mixes, and not just console versions. Because, they are only trying to emulate the arcade experience.

Anyway, I'm pretty terrible at writing as you all can see. But I want to post more later as I come up with it. Maybe my thoughts will come across a little better later. bye!!

**bows**

Hirakashi Ryu
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[Sinistar]

The idea that console gaming has sold out is a horrible misrepresentation of the facts.

Console games were, from the start, intended to be a mainstream product. They were purchased and used on a massive scale. Everybody had an Atari 2600 at some point, even my poor redneck cousins. They would bring their 2600 up to my grandparents house in the woods and we would hook it up to an old black and white TV, playing Pac-Man until the sun came up. Even my grandmother would play Video Pinball once or twice a day.

For goodness' sake, Sears carried those consoles from the start. There was no Atari underground because it started well above ground.

Interestingly, there is an Atari underground now. There are people still creating 2600 games and burning them to carts, others using 2600's as musical instruments. But this is an underground that started with a mass medium and kept with it even after public popularity for the system died off.

Getting back to the topic, I think I'm finally understanding the problem here. The first problem is the use of the word "heritage" in place of the word "history" or "experience". They are similar, but not the same. The second is the use of the phrase "sold out". It's tough to use that phrase with any conviction when using it to describe material that was marketed and merchandised on a wide, international scale when it was initially released.

So, in an attempt to restate the initial complaint (via my own interpretation and not anything that he said directly): Bioclown is angered by the fact that experiences he feels were shared only by an elite group of hardcore gamers are being handed out to everybody who has a few bucks in their pocket, thereby cheapening both his original experiences and his ability to claim those experiences as a history that sets him apart from others.

I would agree with that statement. I think that's a perfectly valid point.

I don't necessarily agree with it, mainly due to the idea of elitism, but I can understand it better than the destruction of heritage angle.

My disagreement with the elitism lies in the fact that console gaming has never been about the elite. Console gaming was designed, from the get-go, to be about entertaining the masses. That's why the machines that were successful were the ones that had less complex interfaces (for example, the Odyssey didn't make it very far, nor did the Adam, even at a time when other consoles were doing brisk business) - those usable machines appealed to a large audience because they didn't require higher orders of understanding to operate them.

PC gaming, on the other hand, has always been about headaches. So the retreat into that platform is probably best if you want to find a smaller, dedicated community. Certainly, you'll always have break-out titles like The Sims or Rollercoaster Tycoon, but I'm fairly certain that you won't see Tribes 2 shirts at Hot Topic 20 years from now.
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[morgan_rhys]

[Sinistar]

[TrippinTheTrance]

[morgan_rhys]

I'd like to interject at this point and say that I think that this discussion has evolved about as far as it is going to.

In fact it had degenerated to the name calling stage, which pretty clearly signals its death knell.

I think that some excellent points have been raised, but I think it's time to move on now. Thank you all for the lively debate.
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Morgan_Rhys' Site

[blue-kun]

Gotta agree with morgan_rhys. It was a real plasure just to watch this thread. Thank you all for your valuable thoughts and points.

Regards,
Eugene
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[Pantera]

[Bioclown]

Dear god, I cannot get over how a good topic can bring out high IQ's in a forum. This is great.
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[!!!!]